The Polish Disease | Murray N. Rothbard

Recorded on 31 January 1981 at the University of Colorado, Boulder. Special thanks to Robert Romero for creating and sharing this important audio recording.

Source: The Polish Disease | Murray N. Rothbard – YouTube

http://www.readroathbard.com/the-polish-disease-murray-n-rothbard

TRANSCRIPT

00:01
I just got she’ll have a libertarian
00:04
free-market Network expensive a little
00:08
pervasive when I got the Fred’s half
00:10
today and I came in from the plane rides
00:13
I was handed a letter from somebody at
00:16
Stanford who either just kind of had
00:18
seen a newspaper work on Polish economy
00:20
he wanted me to have it as I spoke I
00:22
mean that’s really that’s terrific you
00:25
know the budget $2 a libertarian
00:28
movement it’s going pretty doing pretty
00:29
well
00:30
the socialism is now I think
00:37
intellectually and even his reputation
00:40
in general is dead from than that got
00:43
the socialism used to be defined I would
00:46
still look fine it may be one of the
00:48
fine socialism as the government
00:50
ownership of the means of production
00:51
okay or at least control the means of
00:53
production only shipping the sense of
00:56
being able to dominate and and use the
01:00
means of production hope you can hear me
01:01
nice and the interesting thing about the
01:05
socialist system since half the world of
01:07
that socialist
01:08
in this sense interesting thing about
01:11
socialism is that as each is one after
01:13
the other country went socialism the
01:16
socialist United States said that’s not
01:18
socialism that’s not well I meant by and
01:20
I meant something much more humanistic
01:21
and and lovable and so each socialism
01:24
each record each empirical record so who
01:27
has been repudiated in turn so that we
01:32
have a rate the cutest situation when
01:33
the Socialists and the Western world
01:35
keep saying that’s not socialism if you
01:38
keep them go down the record okay let’s
01:40
see what Cambodia did for example under
01:42
Pol Pot killing one third of the
01:45
population cetera that’s not social I
01:47
thought what we meant by socially inept
01:49
I said you know some people sit around
01:50
and read Plato so we keep denying the
01:57
responsibility for the consequences of
01:59
their own position socialism I don’t
02:03
think has a very good reputation anymore
02:05
and certainly in the Eastern European
02:07
countries I’ll get to that in the second
02:09
a minute
02:10
doesn’t have a very good reputation
02:12
either probably a less good reputation
02:14
than those here the the article was
02:18
sentence in Los Angeles Times for the
02:20
summer 26th which deals with says rules
02:24
bent to work Poland’s crazy quill the
02:26
economy and it’s a big line from Warsaw
02:30
a Los Angeles Times it starts off by
02:32
saying that the manager of a coal miner
02:36
in Silesia was one official praise and
02:38
bonuses for the mines impressive
02:39
production but that was before the
02:42
authorities discovered II had ordered
02:44
his workers the mix rock with a coal
02:45
pulled out of the mind to boost
02:47
production figures and this is sort of
02:50
some sort of sums things up and in in a
02:54
socialist country you don’t have a real
02:56
crisis and we’ll get to that in a later
02:57
to you don’t have a price system you
03:00
can’t go profiting off tests and so
03:03
almost inevitably the socialist managers
03:05
decide on quantitative figures you must
03:07
produce you produce you know X million
03:10
board feet of lumber or cones in this
03:14
case well ok managers and we’re quite
03:17
intelligent they know that they’re
03:20
brownie points if they get they Miguel
03:22
if they produce a lot of board filled
03:23
number a lot of coal they get promoted
03:25
or get raises to produce less they got
03:28
the motor or maybe sometimes go to the
03:30
rock pile so they they they do their
03:34
best they’re in the incentive economic
03:36
asset of they have the boost
03:37
quantitative figures even if half the
03:39
people sort of break down a leg as an
03:41
attempt on the case of coal if you’re
03:43
mixed Rockland Co a obviously can get
03:44
more coal per unit effort that’s what
03:47
they did
03:47
in the case of Soviet Union years ago
03:51
they they measure it by board feet you
03:52
must produce you produce X million for P
03:55
and one verse they produce X many more
03:57
Peaks that they were very very narrow
03:58
pieces of lumber okay so
04:03
yes you don’t have a power they produce
04:06
nails of nails buckle every time you
04:08
find a hammer and hammer and hammer the
04:09
nail so you have a situation where if
04:12
you go by quantitative figures you
04:13
always get messed up in a sense of the
04:16
polish the leaves and they go on to say
04:19
it’s kind of cute as one Westerner in
04:21
Warsaw put it about Poland but the crazy
04:26
quote we cannot make regulations
04:29
everybody’s ripping off everybody else
04:31
and since government agencies are the
04:32
biggest and most tempting targets they
04:34
are being ripped off more than anyone
04:36
else and they had done this my pure
04:40
mineral quantitative coal production in
04:43
Atlantic so this is what happened so
04:45
this is just one indication one small
04:48
microcosm of what happens in socialist
04:50
countries in general the the managers
04:54
take over these is nobody else to take
04:56
over the managers there’s no price
04:58
system as though rational economic
04:59
allocation and so the managers take over
05:02
and run things basically what the
05:04
several planners what rules have the pen
05:07
of the lay down whether it’s boards feet
05:09
or tons of coal or whatever
05:12
why don’t you think thing is and one of
05:14
my least favorite economist John Kenneth
05:16
Galbraith claims that the in the United
05:22
States the managers are taking over
05:23
they’re really wanting things
05:24
stockholders don’t don’t matter the
05:26
managers are operating the corporations
05:29
for their own purposes well I think it’s
05:30
a lot of baloney but the point is there
05:32
isn’t there is an area of the economy
05:34
both in the United States and the rest
05:35
of the world where this happened the
05:36
managers have taken over which somehow
05:38
Galbraith never mentions namely
05:39
government and government government
05:43
agencies government Bureau the postal
05:45
office and all of Poland all of Russia
05:47
everything else these aren’t this is the
05:49
manage you’re a revolution I just have
05:50
taken over I messed everything up quite
05:53
clearly
05:53
I remember by the way nice my I was
05:57
growing up these to the radio debates
06:00
and about socialism versus capitalism
06:03
and I usually have a socialist socialist
06:06
evening Norman Thomas Iran seems like 20
06:09
times for president nothing less than
06:11
that I mean it seemed like it perennial
06:13
Socialist Party candidate
06:14
and a capitalist is always something
06:16
well I guess that shouldn’t save them
06:18
but less than articulate congressman
06:22
somewhere right Republican congressman
06:24
and these were this would be this would
06:27
be the you know the opposition that’s
06:29
and the Socialists and Roma common so
06:31
every would say the following look we
06:32
don’t want to threaten anybody
06:33
all we want is a world run like a post
06:35
office government some government has to
06:42
run a post office right right and forth
06:43
the Republican comments Congress we
06:44
always say of course governor on the
06:46
phone :
06:46
and then Norman Thomas whoever always
06:48
wins on the bait of course nobody would
06:50
ever say that now the post over the so
06:52
messed up that no socialist would dare
06:55
to say we want the world run like a post
06:56
office of course the postal offices
06:58
situation where not only the prices keep
07:00
going up all the time which is true in
07:02
general bikes is always go up for
07:04
reasons which I can’t go into it’s
07:06
caused by government believe me trust me
07:08
on that
07:10
prices always go up at all so look the
07:13
quality always goes down least in
07:15
private enterprise the quality of
07:17
products usually goes up the pewters get
07:20
better or TV sets get better and
07:21
whatever the government of the postal is
07:24
of course the quality is always going
07:25
down for the quality of service the I
07:31
remember I was I’m old enough to
07:32
remember one of the few advantages of
07:35
being being older as you can so remember
07:37
what happened 40 years ago I can
07:39
remember for quite clearly they used to
07:41
pick up a mail and deliver the mail
07:42
twice a day in your apartment twice a
07:45
day once at 9 a.m. and once in 1 p.m.
07:48
now force that’s a little shot on
07:50
Saturday mails next to go of course and
07:53
so there’s a constant decline in service
07:56
along with that of course that mail
07:58
takes longer to get there on friends of
08:01
mine in Canada are tearing their hair
08:02
out the Postal Service is even worse
08:03
than here well of course sociologically
08:06
service there literally takes three
08:08
weeks to get a letter from here to
08:09
Canada
08:10
ok so I’m not talking about out on the
08:12
tundra you know with unbelievers for the
08:15
Eskimo I’m talking about in the city all
08:17
right any right the that’s another thing
08:23
because I’m on Galbraith anyway well
08:24
tangential minutes of tangent that’s my
08:27
one of my favorite top
08:28
Galbraith in the Apple of society there
08:30
was attacking advertising the evils of
08:32
advertising how people get sucked into
08:33
buying products because they see pretty
08:36
girls using bio Pepsi and I said they
08:41
rush out the Bible five huts he does it
08:43
quickly and win all these pretty girls
08:44
and keep drinking it the real I don’t
08:50
know anybody who buys Diet Pepsi for
08:51
that reason anyway so that aside the
08:55
really fraudulent advertising is
08:56
government advertisement politicians
08:58
will claim they’re going to cure this
08:59
then the other thing never do it and all
09:02
the rest of it and Galbraith never
09:04
mentions that never never is buckin talk
09:06
about government Ivan Ivan which is a
09:07
real fraudulent area because that’s the
09:09
area where the consumers have no check
09:10
see if if somebody holds up Diet Pepsi
09:14
say boy that’s good and you rush out and
09:17
say boy if it’s pretty girl likes it or
09:19
for to total Jones likely or watch out
09:22
and buy it but they like it yep you’re
09:24
very really a moron maybe you think that
09:25
way then you rush out and drink it if
09:29
you don’t like it that’s a laugh Diet
09:30
Pepsi you’ll ever drink okay no
09:32
otherwise is a market test for Diet
09:35
Pepsi if it works your sense thing and
09:37
keep buying if it doesn’t work you won’t
09:38
buy it there’s no market pest for
09:40
government it’s all very cloudy every
09:43
four years you elect somebody who’s
09:45
about the same to somebody else and four
09:47
years later you forgotten what he said
09:48
there’s only one big four year packaging
09:51
deal the consumer in other words the
09:54
voter has no chance to vote on specific
09:56
issues so there’s the real fraud there’s
09:59
a real advertising problem Galbraith
10:01
never mentions it never ever ever not
10:02
only Galbraith anythin on the other
10:03
Galbraith Ian’s
10:04
okay that’s the end of the guy my
10:07
Galbraith lecture okay the basic in
10:15
socialism getting there getting the more
10:17
theoretical aspect of socialism in
10:18
general the social have always realized
10:21
they have a problem okay they’ve always
10:23
realized I’m talking about Pol Pot and
10:25
and embarrassing things like that
10:27
they’ve always realized for many years
10:29
they’ve have a basic economic problem
10:31
namely and used to be summed up and I
10:33
was growing up who’s gonna pick out the
10:35
garbage
10:38
socialist society if everybody gets
10:41
equal income yeah it sucks it’s sudden
10:44
everybody does what he wants to do
10:45
wherever it is who’s gonna take out the
10:46
garbage wants interesting question it’s
10:50
a great profound question is essentially
10:52
the incentive problem
10:53
who’s gonna who have the incentive to go
10:55
out there and shovel garbage 8 hours a
10:57
day or 10 hours a day or whatever and
11:01
this is a I say this is this has been
11:05
recognized with private social basic
11:07
socialists view was the basic really
11:09
that socialist view is it’s some not for
11:12
the famous marketing slogan from each
11:14
according to his ability to each
11:15
according to his need now we have to add
11:17
her her ability her needs okay so
11:20
everybody contributes sort like a common
11:22
Heat everybody works but it works very
11:24
hard for the collective and contributes
11:26
his or her production of a common heat
11:28
but every production is as fast leak and
11:31
he’s working look-alike then he takes
11:32
that little rainy okay sounds terrific
11:36
maybe I didn’t have to everything me but
11:37
maybe to some people faster over any
11:40
rate that’s the socialist sort of right
11:43
was the more sophisticated socialist
11:44
immediately recognized they had a
11:45
problem here problem it’s kind of a
11:49
negative incentive here in other words
11:51
if you remember of a huge collective was
11:53
going out and working hard and
11:55
contributing of a heap the incentive is
11:57
not the work very hard it sort of goof
11:59
off and sleep behind snooze behind the
12:00
tree and then zip in and get you acquire
12:02
your needs okay yeah because whatever
12:06
you do doesn’t get written much of a
12:08
common heat contribute maybe one
12:09
one-millionth if you work very hard you
12:12
tribute one one minute more to the
12:13
common heap it’s nothing peanuts the
12:15
other hand you can grab him to come and
12:17
he view that’s 100 percent of your own
12:19
consumption that’s a real problem there
12:22
as an obvious problem who’s going to
12:24
take out the garbage in social society
12:28
there’s a couple of little examples of
12:30
the second mentioned so interesting when
12:33
the United States was founded brother
12:34
from when America North America was
12:35
founded the first two colonies are
12:38
flemeth Rock in Massachusetts and
12:41
Jamestown Colony of Virginia both of
12:43
them engaged immediately in communism
12:46
I’m using communism in a small scene
12:49
over the full
12:49
soppec sense in other words the both had
12:52
a communal run by a corporation from
12:54
anyone and everybody there’s no private
12:57
property everybody supposed to
12:58
contribute of the common heat whatever
12:59
grain he grew and all sort of stuff and
13:01
then take whatever he needed my comments
13:03
door they engaged in a pure communist
13:05
system not only didn’t work but everyone
13:08
I was starving Rizzo and the thing is it
13:11
didn’t work even though everybody knew
13:12
they were starving only first of all I
13:14
weren’t twenty minutes up to one of
13:15
million people James down there only a
13:17
couple of thousand it still didn’t work
13:19
no Bo’s everybody even though everybody
13:20
knew when that got they didn’t produce
13:22
more wheat they starve
13:23
everybody knew in his heart despite all
13:26
the exhortations brother head of a
13:28
colony little immoral injunction they
13:31
know what each part nil in their heart I
13:32
mean if like if I work 20 hours a day
13:35
it’s not going contribute much in the
13:36
common heat so what the hell will it but
13:38
if I grandpa of coming here if he’s a
13:40
lot to me so there’s all is nobody
13:42
worked much and everybody grad was open
13:44
like no more wheat left so he had a
13:47
fundamental situation when both in
13:48
Jamestown and and in Plymouth Rock and
13:51
colony almost died out from starvation
13:53
finally driven to the in extremity
13:56
even though when I guess their
13:57
ideological preconceptions the heads of
14:00
the governors of Plymouth Colony and the
14:04
genius said well gee I’m sorry folks
14:06
they use much more elegant 17th century
14:07
language I’m sorry folks I guess we have
14:10
to have private property and we now
14:12
don’t have every person having 30 acres
14:15
or whatever it is each person will get
14:16
whatever he you know he grows and bingo
14:20
presto change-o of colony flourish
14:22
starvation was over and everybody’s
14:24
possible now this was a tremendous made
14:27
a tremendous impact there’s sort of a
14:28
practical impact on the American
14:30
colonists cuz they saw right away
14:31
communism lease and starvation private
14:33
property leads to prosperity very simple
14:35
sort of a control experiment sense okay
14:39
so that’s one point I will mention
14:42
another interesting point was just
14:44
purely fictional
14:45
it’s kind of interesting anyway a
14:47
beautiful very very funny novel appeared
14:49
a couple of years ago I Sarah McFadden
14:51
called serial about Marin County and the
14:54
crazies who infest it in California and
14:57
as she went through she went through an
15:01
urban commune
15:02
we’ve lived in a house for twenty ten
15:04
people or something none of whom knew
15:05
each other but there were supposed to be
15:07
community and she noticed very quickly
15:09
there’s one guy there I’ll never wash
15:11
his own dishes will always left the
15:13
common Briscoe Haqqani in the washed his
15:15
dishes and and which he challenged him
15:18
on that she he said I’m not into the
15:19
dishes I don’t know anybody who is in
15:25
the dishes really write that come you
15:29
collapse pretty quickly too and this is
15:31
only like ten people if not not even a
15:33
couple several hundred the okay so the
15:38
incentive that is negative its socialist
15:40
I think I realized when long time they
15:41
have an incentive problem look what did
15:43
that what then to do about it
15:44
well the several ways of handling it
15:47
then and the new left period it was
15:48
quite common we’ll say well that’s true
15:51
everybody should get a coin it was needs
15:53
what we scale down the leads I know
15:55
who’s the we here okay that’s kind of
15:57
fuzzy everybody should have very little
16:00
needs you see if everybody had willing
16:02
to subsist on only yogurt and dried nuts
16:07
and whatever and I like trying to get
16:11
pardon court then I come in then we
16:15
wouldn’t need much and then the whole
16:16
problem will be sort of eliminated I
16:18
don’t think that’s gonna get very far
16:20
either the one problem with that is they
16:23
see who determines who needs what the I
16:27
was arguing with a socialist one time he
16:28
said well we will have a we won’t have
16:31
okay I will have a computer we establish
16:34
the socialist coming well and computer
16:36
will figure I would plug in everybody
16:37
needs and when you sign the lease
16:39
everybody has we’re all very simply
16:40
don’t need any prices of private
16:41
property I say yeah but I need a lot of
16:44
things maybe I need yachts and I need
16:48
I need 10,000 books and yeah big stereo
16:51
sets how about that I said well of
16:55
course these have to be reasonable
16:59
the other question is who defines who
17:00
the other person’s reasonable leave
17:03
obviously some damn collective it some
17:05
some committee or whatever we’re gonna
17:07
define you need such a size well I think
17:09
this guy he doesn’t need to go over
17:10
separately and you wind up with a
17:12
totalitarian system uh okay the but even
17:20
if you do that so what so what about the
17:22
supply problem how do you how do you get
17:23
people to work hard if they if they know
17:25
they’re not gonna then I gotta eat
17:26
themselves not gonna benefit much is all
17:28
gonna go to the collective and so the
17:32
basic socialist answer to that it’s
17:33
quite well it’s simple in theory that’s
17:35
a simple in practice the basic social
17:36
things are the way we overcome the
17:38
incentive problem is by creating in
17:40
transforming human nature create the new
17:43
socialist man capital n capital s
17:45
capital n well whose socialist woman the
17:48
new socialist man will be different he
17:49
or she won’t be a quiz ative won’t be
17:51
interested in won’t be worried about the
17:52
fact that he works 20 more hours will
17:55
get only one point peanut he will be
18:00
happy and proud and honor to work for
18:02
the collective work his guts out for the
18:03
collective right and that’s the sort of
18:05
man we have to transform this is I think
18:07
the basic reason why Soviet Russia and
18:10
China except Iran Cambodia or whatever
18:11
tried when they got in they tried using
18:14
every sort of coercive method obviously
18:16
it has to be court how you gonna how is
18:18
he gonna do it
18:19
but try to use all sorts of brainwashing
18:21
torture methods the China’s transform
18:23
human nature fast we’re out of shape
18:26
everybody up that becomes a make that
18:27
has mold of a new out for some man will
18:30
then work hard for the collective I
18:32
remember fortunately force that even
18:36
that didn’t work remember I saw a fellow
18:39
traveling movie about China about twenty
18:40
ten fifty years ago where everybody was
18:43
a chilling series of interviews by the
18:45
interview over the supposedly typical
18:48
Chinese family and they said well what
18:51
do you want your children would be one
18:52
when they grow up and they said we want
18:54
them to work hard for the collective you
18:55
know my question is if they really mean
18:58
it
19:00
were they really brainwashed an extent
19:01
was with a spirit of the human spirit so
19:04
so deteriorated and smashed they really
19:08
thought this way where they really
19:09
robots well fortunately my money my
19:12
friend or acquaintance Gordon Pollock
19:14
was some of you may know as a
19:15
distinguished economist he started off
19:17
in life as a Chinese expert he was a
19:19
China Han in the State Department and it
19:23
was the prisoner Chinese communist when
19:25
I took over 1429 anyways I asked him
19:28
well you’re the China expert at the
19:30
Chinese really abated 600 million
19:31
Chinese I really love the state not
19:33
forget it he says an ancient Chinese
19:35
tradition they always tell the boss you
19:38
know that somebody coming from Pete king
19:39
or Nanking NORTHCOM what he wants to
19:40
hear a local level I think is all
19:42
baloney
19:43
of course to turn that they were he was
19:45
right the word turns out after twenty
19:48
thirty years of brainwashing the free
19:52
market is making enormous a remarkable
19:54
comeback in China the guys are
19:56
responsible for the so cool the
19:58
transformation of new socialist man now
20:00
and jlr being locked up and being prison
20:03
or whatever so this so this but see this
20:08
comes right in if you’re you’re supposed
20:10
to be working hard not to get this is a
20:12
socialist world this is the so-called
20:14
argument of putting material incentives
20:16
immoral incentives a new socialist
20:19
manual will not be interested in me and
20:21
material income he or she will work as
20:23
guts a for moral incentives but the mall
20:26
another may want means like a mother
20:27
hero of bhajana might labor or hero of
20:31
the Chinese Revolution okay well doesn’t
20:35
fortunately didn’t seem to work and the
20:39
moron sentence avoids collapsed this was
20:42
a big debate between in Cuba between
20:43
Castro and Che Guevara shake of our
20:46
being in favor moron side doesn’t
20:47
finally think I have to get something
20:48
off the Bolivia to get shot and shipped
20:52
all with a material on said this so it
20:55
seems pretty clear then at the the new
20:58
socialist man hasn’t worked that has
20:59
there is no new socialism and it was
21:01
just a bunch of people were looking for
21:02
material incentives and trying hard to
21:04
get it
21:04
friends of mine or were Russian experts
21:07
who visited Russia recently said that
21:08
nobody believes in this junk any nobody
21:10
nobody that Marxist
21:11
Russia or anymore they don’t believe in
21:13
the government there were purely cynical
21:15
they just they just caught in this
21:17
bureaucratic thing they’re trying to do
21:18
they before the best they can within
21:19
this you know it’s maze which I think
21:22
links up there all the other information
21:24
we were getting out of there anyway
21:30
the now this is this is new socialist
21:35
man solution which turns out to be fool
21:38
t to say the least it’s really the
21:40
origin of the old theories you don’t
21:41
hear so much anymore I I heard I was
21:43
growing up
21:43
socialism is beautiful in theory but
21:45
can’t work in practice social it is the
21:48
moral position that’s beautiful and
21:51
moral but somehow doesn’t work than
21:52
practical I mean after a Pol Pot and
21:56
Stalin and Mao and self what doesn’t
22:00
seem so beautiful anymore or you mean so
22:01
immoral but so you don’t hear that much
22:04
anymore but this is the R in the origin
22:06
of that because known as the idea is
22:07
we’re trying to transform you of nature
22:09
were trying to everybody at work that
22:10
guts out for the collectives and if we
22:13
fail it’s because human nature is
22:14
recounted from see the work okay
22:20
without going into the moral critique of
22:24
Pope finds finite cuz I’m working I got
22:26
sacked like that is not very moral at
22:28
the contrary I don’t and here’s an
22:30
economist rather than more or less so I
22:33
will press on to saying this that the
22:37
the real problem socialism hasn’t even
22:39
touched hasn’t even been touched yet
22:41
because the real the real interesting
22:43
thing here is an economic point of view
22:45
even if you transform socialism a if you
22:48
created a whole bunch of 200 million
22:50
robots in Russia in five minutes a ton a
22:52
million robots in China and all that and
22:54
they’re all asked done how it works i
22:56
collective didn’t care about them
22:57
another throats being cut as well like
22:59
those as long as the sugar crop
23:00
increased by 2% even there what are they
23:04
gonna do but even if even if it got them
23:07
even you transform them and you know if
23:09
you saw the incentive problem these poor
23:12
people were two billion people farm
23:15
worker fight they wouldn’t know what to
23:16
do how they gonna work for the clock
23:18
what are they gonna do sure they grow
23:20
sugar should they grow wheat should they
23:24
make machines of some
23:25
sort should they you know grow copper I
23:27
mean my copper who’s gonna tell them
23:30
what the hell they know what they don’t
23:31
know damn thing like they all I know is
23:32
they should work hard let’s say that
23:33
absorb what work hard
23:36
I think we’re holding at blank God
23:38
nobody knows and the problem the
23:41
economic problem is socialism the
23:42
government doesn’t know either there’s
23:45
no rational way of figuring out all
23:46
these people should be doing after you
23:48
finally brainwash them and transform
23:50
their nature supposedly they don’t know
23:52
what to do their gung-ho baby you know
23:54
tell me point me to something nobody has
23:57
a problem is it
24:00
the because the dope price system is no
24:03
private ownership of the means of
24:04
production is therefore a no fight
24:06
system is therefore no way that anybody
24:09
any government planner can tell what’s
24:11
scarce um what isn’t secure for example
24:13
supposing suppose the United States both
24:16
in the world was collectivist world
24:18
communist state there’s no market
24:20
anywhere like Marcus wouldn’t stamp that
24:22
actually the only way really we throw
24:25
our Russia exists right now because they
24:26
have a vast black market right it’s a
24:29
man on the side and then in America the
24:32
planners are watching and trying to
24:33
decide what to do what do we do you know
24:34
what did we allocate resources and
24:37
somebody says I think me great idea if
24:38
we build a plant them and goal-line
24:39
tunnel from New York that’s the San
24:41
Francisco why not well so what’s the
24:47
problem with that well you might say
24:49
it’s too coarsely what do you mean to
24:51
call how do you know what the costs are
24:52
nobody knows what the costs are nobody
24:53
knows what the course the Platinum would
24:55
be or gold or anything else I mean no
24:57
way of comparing I mean let’s assume a
24:59
technologically feasible or do it
25:00
there’s no there’s no way of assigning
25:03
whether that’s better or what you should
25:04
build a couple of steel plant somewhere
25:06
or
25:08
strip-mine something nobody knows
25:09
anything because it’s a little van of
25:10
seeing a fog of pure chaos the this this
25:16
insight was first provider the world my
25:18
my mentor Lilly von Mises in his article
25:22
in 1920 and the set the socialism in on
25:27
their ear and in Europe the and they had
25:32
all sorts of very complex solutions on
25:35
how to kind of solve this problem well
25:36
create a kind of a market will pretend
25:38
that some
25:38
market hotel everybody’s playing market
25:41
is when I really master this the longer
25:42
fingers long solution the order to the
25:45
managers we tell us socialist managers
25:47
go out there for 10 year only only or
25:49
your corporation and play market right
25:52
then you’ll have an exchange on Swiss
25:54
are obviously playing markets are like
25:55
play monopoly or something it’s really
25:57
pointless ridiculous market only exists
26:00
if you’re really committing your
26:02
resource if you’re willing to sacrifice
26:03
some resources to get something else I’m
26:05
willing to shell out twenty five
26:07
thousand New York Times that’s a market
26:08
if I’m willing to pay $10,000 from some
26:11
machine at the market claim money
26:13
doesn’t make it if anybody can do that I
26:15
mean I can be a whiz that you’re not
26:17
gonna invest two million dollars and
26:18
play money in the stock market I don’t
26:19
care what happenes okay so this is uh
26:23
and and they in the longest solution
26:28
long I Lerner these people were trying
26:29
to come up with a so-called economic
26:31
market argument for socialism really
26:35
stuck the consumer good they kept saying
26:37
well there’s no real problem you produce
26:39
a certain set number what piece shut
26:42
number bubble this is a bubblegum then
26:44
you have a stock up bubblegum if you
26:45
want out what the prices your rate is
26:47
the price and if you find out it’s too
26:49
much bubble gonna wrangle lower the
26:51
price so you can find out there’s too
26:52
much that’s going to fashion raise the
26:55
price you sort of adjust the price the
26:56
basis of inventory okay so that’s you
26:59
know there’s no problem with what are
27:00
you belly aching it back this is fine
27:03
for body you’ve already produced the
27:04
bubble gun in other words on a consumer
27:06
good level you can do it
27:07
you can you can you can produce a
27:09
certain amount of bubblegum a certain
27:10
amount of gear shifts and Wonderbread
27:11
and whatever and then you can adjust the
27:14
consumer prices whether the inventory is
27:17
being cleared or not but how do you know
27:19
how to how much de Bru’s in the first
27:20
place how do you know how much bubblegum
27:21
to produce or Wonder Bread apple juice
27:23
to begin with you don’t know that’s the
27:25
whole point there’s no because there’s
27:26
no producers good market there’s no mark
27:28
of a capital good for real materials
27:30
everything is chaos until you get to
27:32
look at Zoomer goods market so this
27:37
that’s inside of me this was written
27:39
never really answered by the Socialists
27:44
the one point always struggling alone I
27:46
read long ago and learn these people in
27:48
trying to say that socialism can
27:49
calculate
27:51
one point it struck me was if they’re so
27:53
long I kept saying well look we can
27:55
duplicate the market we can make it in
27:56
such a way it’s little etcetera and the
27:58
thing that struck me when I was reading
27:59
it in college well these some actions
28:01
duplicate the market when I have the
28:02
market begin whether forget about a
28:03
little socialism junk so seem simpler to
28:08
do it that way and have the very best
28:12
really right the and so supposing for
28:18
example make a concrete let’s take
28:19
allocation of Labor on the social is
28:21
like I’ll talk the allocation consumer
28:22
goods take labor because we’ve talked
28:25
about that already working gung-ho for
28:26
the for the state supposing supposing I
28:33
come around and the little of Committee
28:36
cuz some committees and allocate my
28:38
labor right there’s a socialist planning
28:39
committee we’re gonna find out what my
28:41
needs are where I should search the
28:43
service society of the collective the
28:45
state I kind of let’s say look well gee
28:47
fellas I really love the shovel garbage
28:50
for the glory of a collective I mean I
28:51
really I’m really nothing I won’t do for
28:54
the collective but I really think I can
28:57
serve the collective better by banging
29:00
the drums by blowing the kazoo which is
29:04
you know why well by acting my imitating
29:11
the collective president whoever it is
29:15
that’s my area of expertise that’s my
29:18
area which I can serve the collective
29:19
best and so it’s not that I don’t want a
29:23
shovel garbage I love to show more I
29:25
really think that’s sir
29:26
who is gonna what criterion will these
29:29
guys have to say that I’m wrong or right
29:31
how do they know what I said look like
29:33
the best way by by putting on a
29:35
performance imitating the collective
29:37
chairman and vice-chairman or by by by
29:41
by blowing the kazoo or whatever there’s
29:43
no quite period is no real criterion to
29:44
figure out anything and so hold whatever
29:47
decision to make is gonna be arbitrary I
29:48
feel like me to say ok Rothbard
29:50
go and blow look it’s assuming if they
29:53
don’t like you know something on the
29:55
garbage shoveling detail okay so we get
29:58
in other words to the point so there’s
30:00
no rational criteria no we’re actually
30:02
right here we can I’m a calculation such
30:04
as we have
30:04
in the free market and replaces them on
30:06
top of the lowest test the Criterion’s
30:09
all arbitrary all right go out there and
30:10
we don’t like doing you’re a couple who
30:12
they get a cent for example of Liberia
30:13
hotel let’s say Pullman Siberia he I
30:16
don’t want to hear to anybody Montana
30:23
anyway
30:27
northern Alaska ok gooeyness end of
30:31
Alaska you have to send somebody there
30:32
laughing we want to have a pipeline we
30:34
must and who even decide to go to build
30:36
a pipeline in Alaska well who are they
30:38
gonna send there they’re gonna send um
30:40
well comrades some of these he’s a
30:42
troublemaker he’s and belly aching about
30:44
the collective recent let’s let’s
30:45
toughen them up I didn’t eat it’s gonna
30:47
give Alaska its in other words when you
30:50
get a system of centralized planning
30:51
almost inevitably have a Siberian
30:53
solution in other word Lenin and Stalin
30:56
sought shipping their or their opponents
30:58
of Siberia which is a non preferred
31:03
residential area because see somebody’s
31:08
got to be sent to Siberia who you gonna
31:09
send they send the guys you wanna get
31:11
rid of no little bets are off
31:15
for the socialist system at all who you
31:17
know who you don’t know who hate you and
31:19
I get a whole all of like has
31:20
politicized which is really gonna really
31:22
ultimate horror I’m good sir all the
31:24
life becomes everything becomes a
31:25
political decision
31:27
so the I got one one example I remember
31:34
the about how labor is allocate under
31:37
socialism the Cuba I don’t know if you
31:40
remember about I guess about
31:41
slightly less than twenty years ago
31:43
Castro the side of the Hat that may have
31:45
to produce ten million tons of sugar in
31:47
Cuba some obscure reason tell me in
31:49
terms of it he puts on a big ten million
31:51
tons campaign the world collapse it was
31:54
a less depending upon the world
31:55
he save or Cuba would save with ten
31:57
million and so all these all American
32:00
left us rushed down the Cuban support
32:03
meant to Ramos Brigade the cut came
32:06
saying that they were they were
32:09
ordinarily in favor of the Cuban
32:10
collective we’re gonna cut cane I knew
32:12
some I know a couple these people I cut
32:13
cane what happened was they they didn’t
32:15
know a damn thing in my pain cutting
32:16
even where it’s been finalized in New
32:18
York City
32:21
like that we sugar growing area they
32:24
were chopping each other on the back
32:25
with machete if anything they were
32:29
counterproductive let’s you know let’s
32:31
sugar with being wrong but their efforts
32:33
things anymore or you have the you know
32:40
and mouch trying to have a kill of
32:42
stalling mother you guys go out there
32:43
and kill Starling there’s a monstrous
32:53
isn’t I said that the only way you can
32:54
handle it how do you how do you allocate
32:55
labor if you can’t have a wage as a free
32:57
wage system in other words you get a bit
33:00
if some company wants to build a
33:01
pipeline now in Alaska which they did
33:03
who decides what goes up the last oh
33:05
well my way they did of course they they
33:06
pay very high wages you make a fortune
33:08
they want to slip up the left and work
33:10
on the pipeline and a lot of people did
33:12
it ok this is there’s nothing to spend
33:15
on all laughter you save it save it all
33:17
up right that was the free choice of
33:19
people go up the laughing end but in a
33:21
in a socialist sister communist system
33:23
were free wage free wage market is not
33:26
allowed where everything is supposed to
33:28
be done by moral incentives it’s not
33:32
from one or two nuts who might really
33:33
want to go to last gonna look alike then
33:35
they’ve shipped out by coercion in the
33:37
words of listen of the troublemakers
33:38
revised a look looking cross-eyed at you
33:40
make the mic me my voter gets you and
33:43
Ike so meeting he gets shipped out of
33:45
left all right the the calculation
33:56
problem begins in Iran and Russia when
34:03
the Communists took over on Russia in
34:05
1917 when they supposed to do this
34:08
wasn’t an order you’re a communist now
34:09
the whole point right
34:10
the first thing in any they trial
34:12
abolished money abolish the market and
34:15
have everybody contribute to the common
34:17
heat which is although they were
34:18
advocating from last the previous 75
34:20
years old so this was cool war communism
34:22
as was Paul Craig Roberts points out an
34:24
excellent book which I recommend
34:25
everybody the war communism
34:30
which lasted from 1917 in 1920-21 was
34:34
not just a war situation with a
34:35
dedicated ideological thing coming us
34:37
get in they finally achieve power well
34:39
that’s what are they supposed to do this
34:41
with a plan to affect their goals namely
34:43
smash the market smash commodity
34:46
production and money everybody will end
34:47
contribute of a common Heat well the
34:49
whole thing fell apart peasants we’re
34:51
getting money that didn’t contribute in
34:53
common heat and it’s not killing
34:55
peasants and whole thing just broke that
34:56
nobody 80 food so but then happening was
35:00
a Lenin being a very shrewd peg noticed
35:03
finally decided either coming his
35:05
ideology or up they all get shot so he
35:07
just gave up he totally retreated went
35:09
back in the so-called new economic
35:11
policy neck it’s really realized uh
35:14
capitalism was semi capitalism for about
35:17
most of the 1920s and so people start
35:20
eating again and Russia was saved so
35:27
this this was the thing ideological
35:29
attempt which it shouldn’t work same
35:31
thing happened in Pol Pot and Cambodia
35:33
the difference between but Cambodia
35:35
first thing a Cambodian people though
35:36
the Cambodians were from an interesting
35:39
group there were first of all they were
35:42
all about fourteen second of all they
35:46
just come out of the jungle up about ten
35:48
fifteen years and fighting in the jungle
35:49
if they were so isolated from all other
35:50
influences a third of all the old study
35:53
in France which is always always a bad
35:55
thing to begin with we studied under
36:01
French Marxist Maoist whatever markussi
36:04
and wherever they are they’re out to
36:05
Syrians and so they design of the
36:08
question not only crush all money I
36:09
bought the abolished money okay
36:11
now you might think this is only so wife
36:14
bunnies abolish I probably just
36:15
materialism why should we be so
36:16
concerned why are we pro money kind of
36:18
massively free-market comments always
36:19
been accusing materialistic and being
36:21
pro money I’m pro mic a most because I
36:23
don’t have money but the the point about
36:27
the money thing is there’s a direct
36:29
correlation tea money and freedom if you
36:31
earn money I was if you get ten thousand
36:33
dollars a year let’s say from your
36:34
employer whoever they go out and spend
36:36
it on him whatever you want
36:37
those even buy things here not buy
36:39
things you can save you have your
36:41
freedom to allocate your income but if
36:44
there’s no
36:44
money it means you get you either you
36:46
get whatever is handed out to you by the
36:48
government authorities by your soul
36:50
group or committee you whatever name
36:51
okay.come rad three bowls of rice and
36:54
that’s it
36:54
there’s no way to get around it so you
36:56
can’t buy anything cuz money’s gonna
36:58
botch is a diabolic thing I mean it’s
37:00
total it’s probably the worst thing
37:01
single thing that happened anybody’s
37:03
freedom for money to be abolished that’s
37:05
it then you accept whatever you can get
37:07
from the from the comrades are usually
37:09
pretty short anyway and if they don’t
37:11
like the cut of your jib or if you look
37:12
too intellectual to them you get only
37:14
half of rain of Rights today
37:17
so so again you have a forced labor
37:21
system coming in on with automatically
37:22
in camera the difference with Cambodia
37:24
difference between Cambodia and the
37:25
regular Marxist Leninist thing is the
37:27
Cambodians would absorb Rousseau
37:29
somewhere along the way in France you
37:31
got a weird combination of Lenin and
37:33
Rousseau but the idea that cities are
37:35
evil let me stamp that immediately right
37:42
so they crushed the city that’s where
37:43
everybody starts starving we’re in very
37:44
quickly that’s the back that’s sort of
37:47
like actually put it sort of like a like
37:49
a back the American back to the land
37:51
moves on going completely berserk maybe
37:54
it is this the back of that people
37:56
suddenly appears on arms and machine
37:58
guns bazookas and ordered everybody
37:59
everybody had it done but I’m just going
38:01
something go go so anyway I mean one
38:07
thing you have to say about Marty
38:08
they’re not love the land particularly
38:10
so that’s one when thing is favor let me
38:13
write the economic calculation problem
38:19
by the way one interesting parallel what
38:21
comes if you live long enough thinks
38:23
I’ll go full circle or whatever
38:24
interesting parallel and convolutions
38:26
come up Norman brown is one of one of
38:29
the most popular writers the nineteen
38:30
sixties I don’t know if anybody’s ever
38:31
heard of them here
38:33
we’ll just saying lunatic book cool of
38:38
against that random paperback extol
38:43
irrationality and unreason reason is
38:45
evil and spontaneous or whatever it is
38:48
great and he finally gets the social
38:50
somewhere on those minas muck of a book
38:52
I mean it’s very even he suddenly talks
38:54
about some calculation debate unpaid
38:56
whatever it is
38:57
– and he says he’s what he says Mises
39:00
and Hayek challenged socialism they
39:03
pointed out that socialism can’t cap you
39:05
like can engage in rational economic
39:07
calculation and a trouble what socialism
39:09
of 20th century is but the longer
39:11
learning these people put them at they
39:12
were they trying to show that socialism
39:14
can’t calculate and that’s where
39:15
soldiers went all went bad but glory of
39:18
socialism is that shouldn’t calculi
39:19
should be totally irrational and
39:23
shouldn’t worry about calculation
39:25
everybody knows so that’s that
39:27
interestingly enough unfortunately
39:31
nobody’s heard of brown recently so I
39:33
think that’s a no the world works in one
39:35
of those ways we now have a sort of
39:38
slightly were praising this and late
39:39
it’s very highly taught a book by George
39:41
Gilder who’s a right winger contrast to
39:44
brown being a how a leftist Gilder is
39:48
the book wealth and welcome poverty says
39:50
that says the great thing about the free
39:52
market is in contrast the government is
39:54
the free market is irrational and weak
39:58
and free market can’t calculate and it’s
40:00
free spontaneous giving that’s so I
40:04
didn’t say one of the interesting things
40:06
about history is you learn of the same
40:08
error he’s popping up over decades and
40:11
centuries give you a perspective the
40:27
what’s happened in the I just actually
40:31
wind up this theme I talking about
40:32
what’s happening on I think favorable
40:33
it’s just interesting favorable opinion
40:35
in Eastern Europe the what might say is
40:40
quite phenomenal by happening he was
40:42
slavi I don’t think the current you
40:43
missed off system to there any great
40:44
shakes if you look at my view slobby is
40:46
now to compare what it was 1952 it’s on
40:49
the phenomenal
40:50
Peto as we all know brooklet Stalin at
40:52
forty eight then itself was not that
40:54
significant from the economic point of
40:56
view but 1952 largely on the guidance
40:58
nothing at mill amongee lost a later
41:00
Brooklyn Phaedo and so forth they
41:03
suddenly came inclusion of central
41:04
planning isn’t working something wrong
41:06
with it and they started moving rapidly
41:08
toward the market which
41:11
really phenomenal they’ve got another
41:14
point at this point I wouldn’t say to
41:16
have a free market they got another
41:17
point however with its very strong
41:19
elements of free market economy here the
41:21
workers really own the plan
41:24
it’s truly own the producers co-op
41:26
manner the individual worker can’t sell
41:29
it share which is a big defect but still
41:31
in all of the plants are all owned like
41:33
a producer’s car a kind of work there’s
41:34
a exchange products freely and love a
41:37
free price system the tax rate is pretty
41:40
low it’s only about 20 percent lower
41:42
than American tax rate this change came
41:45
about 90 in the mid-60s it was
41:46
previously like 80 or 90 percent so we
41:49
had a situation now where animal with
41:51
this came a change of attitude among the
41:54
Yugoslavia munis so that they started
41:59
saying well you have things like this
42:02
especially by the way in Croatia
42:04
Slovenia where they come in at the
42:06
Economist or almost free market oriented
42:09
compared to the rest of you Islamic any
42:11
right they say things like this why
42:12
should we productive thrifty hardworking
42:14
people in Croatia be taxed support lazy
42:18
slob of the mother they grow work why
42:23
should we keep substitute my should we
42:25
think we subsidizing inefficient
42:26
factories in Albanian and Gustavo a
42:29
solar region Albania convenient time for
42:31
you and also they were there with their
42:34
they think in terms of the English law
42:37
of mindset even the American mindset of
42:39
something our beast has been for
42:40
recently something like this yeah if
42:42
there’s a problem okay there’s a social
42:44
problem there’s lots of social problem
42:46
minions I can find millions of social
42:47
problems such as too many red-headed
42:50
people have hangnails okay I mean we
42:52
could have you spent ten million dollars
42:54
on any any neh grant or NSF grant find
42:57
out how many old people I’m hangnails
42:59
redheaded old people and then count it
43:01
up and hanging out this is a hangnail
43:04
gap where the hangnail problem we need a
43:05
crash program ten billion dollars in
43:09
federal aid eliminate hangnails and face
43:11
of the earth ok that’s cool so that’s
43:21
that’s a typical has been a typical
43:23
Western American mindset there’s a
43:24
problem pass a law get a thorough grant
43:28
it’s a sort of a lower creates new
43:29
problems such as if you have priced and
43:31
throw up shortages what are you doing
43:32
then will you create a Gestapo to root
43:35
out the hoarded oil or whatever it is
43:36
and when you create new laws new
43:39
bureaucracies on top of it the US law of
43:42
mites I’ve got to be at a point like
43:43
this well if they around the problems
43:46
they didn’t still do what government
43:48
intervention can where you repeal
43:49
where can we introduce the market to fix
43:51
this up this is the kind of might sound
43:53
like to see us developed in other words
43:54
we have any problem okay what are we
43:57
repeal next where is the government
43:59
messing things up and working we get rid
44:01
of them that’s the kind of mindset so I
44:03
think we can bet that just that mindset
44:05
we can learn from the ulusoy haven’t
44:07
gone far enough obviously miss la way
44:08
but but that mindset they interesting is
44:10
not that in the late sixties they were
44:12
talking about early 70s before tdawg and
44:15
who went a little off the rails I think
44:17
he did they started talking in these
44:19
terms they said well you know the
44:21
workers own the plants okay but each
44:24
individual worker can’t own his share
44:25
nowheres happy isn’t it isn’t it
44:27
unfortunate if a worker of acquired the
44:30
age of 65 or something why should he be
44:31
able to keep voting
44:32
why shouldn’t you be able to pass his
44:34
share on to his children and he started
44:36
talking in terms of a stock market the
44:39
very good stock on just all we can say
44:41
the Millennium it’s arrived free markup
44:43
if I’m talking in terms of stock market
44:46
which horses would send any true Marxist
44:48
spinning in his grave or cutting his
44:49
throat and I said what’s what we know
44:52
that the old-fashioned Marx this won’t
44:53
like this the idea to stock market let’s
44:55
call it socialist people capitalism
44:58
so that’s the kind of creative thinking
45:01
I think it’s a thing to find an interest
45:03
and we any right there’s one joke by the
45:09
way that among economists I don’t know
45:10
if it’s true but the rope used to be
45:12
growing rather than any international
45:14
economic meaning the eastern economist
45:16
means a communist country Thomas would
45:18
talk about the glories of the free
45:19
market and the Western economies profile
45:21
of all ways of planning well maybe this
45:24
is Mississippi maybe this is a chain
45:26
this point oh you’re right the I think I
45:40
think one of the things we need in the
45:43
in the and the economics profession the
45:45
the Mises Hayek side of the economic
45:47
calculation debate it’s still not very
45:48
well known law obscuri even among
45:51
free-market economists even among people
45:52
are opposed to socialism
45:54
their view is the only problem with
45:57
socialism fight night for example is
45:58
excellent free market economists in many
46:01
ways his view whether the only problem
46:03
socialism or aligning it set the problem
46:05
cetera there’s no problem of calculation
46:07
I think if we realized that was a
46:09
calculation problem would provide a
46:11
tremendous new insight and new
46:13
ammunition just on that basis and the
46:16
critique of socialism it’s pretty clear
46:18
aside from the moral aspects I don’t
46:20
deny I think moral aspects is very
46:21
important if you also come to inclusion
46:24
the social can’t even calculate what
46:25
they want to do in other words even if
46:27
you have social planner if you assume
46:30
that we can override consumer
46:31
sovereignty if they allocate labor
46:33
anyplace you want they still can’t do it
46:34
even once this I think is a powerful
46:36
argument against the socialist position
46:39
and it’s an argument aside which I think
46:41
has been carried borne out and practice
46:44
in all of socialist countries but we
46:46
know of that and we’ve all that the rule
46:48
those from early Virginia and Plymouth
46:51
want communism the Pol Pot it’s over a
46:54
very similar record some first of all
46:56
Google and others but a very similar I
46:57
kind of total an abject failure and I
47:00
think the failure systematic it’s not
47:02
just an accident of every social
47:04
experiments failed miserably it’s an
47:06
inherently nature of the socialist
47:07
system ok I think
47:10
thank you very much
47:18
professor rothbard be glad to answer any
47:20
questions I think I’ll start out with
47:22
professor bolding you got a question or
47:26
a comment I see you every other Smith
47:30
tie on which is really good for Adam
47:32
Smith ties here tonight Murray isn’t
47:34
wearing one because they don’t make them
47:35
their bow ties
49:10
no I don’t think so the Great Depression
49:12
was caused by government a Federal
49:14
Reserve intervention and Hoover’s
49:15
intervention that’s a I can’t get off on
49:17
that that’s another topic I’m happy i
49:19
lecture on that some other time but
49:21
that’s that’s a yeah lots the I don’t
49:24
think well I think I think they’re
49:45
really in this sense there are obviously
49:47
in the real world or the whole spectrum
49:48
cases and you know how you have some a
49:51
socialist or I’m like I know them I that
49:53
obviously I think pure secure market
49:55
economies have existed in the past but
49:58
any rate and certainly approximations to
50:00
them I just think the more market you
50:02
have a better it is and more government
50:04
you have the worse and so when you get
50:06
the point of socialism obviously have an
50:08
extreme position I don’t see any real
50:11
market failure though I think I really
50:13
think that Willie gamma gills we can
50:15
think of or close by my government I
50:17
mean first I mean initially of course
50:19
that caused by the fact we whole are
50:20
born on the world without capital
50:22
equipment and all that
50:23
apart from that they’re caused by
50:25
government so that but that’s the whole
50:28
gets isn’t a whole other beg pardon
50:33
yeah yeah yeah
50:40
Hong Kong’s great Hong Kong’s getting is
50:41
slipping a little bit since that guy
50:42
died I mean he was design I forgot his
50:44
name was responsible for that it’s not
50:47
it’s slipping a little bit control and
50:49
stuff but that’s how I come by the way
50:52
it’s interesting point because Hong Kong
50:53
when I was growing up with the textbooks
50:57
all said that America is strong and
50:59
great and prosperous because we have a
51:01
lot of large national natural resources
51:03
and big land area a lot of wheat and you
51:07
know it’s sort of the agriculture and
51:08
all Englund warm water or whatever
51:10
how come it’s probably nothing and no
51:12
resources
51:14
it just has a crummy Rock doesn’t grow
51:16
anything except yeah little bit up on
51:19
the peninsula there and there’s a huge
51:22
number of people me so in any criterion
51:24
you think of it be an over populated
51:26
area and yet it’s flourishing and sound
51:29
something’s going up at cetera it’s all
51:30
due to freedom somehow you should take
51:36
the I don’t want the favorite using
51:38
favoritism okay up there
51:56
I don’t think we have a 90 20 night
52:13
situation because we’re no longer any
52:17
checks are limits on Federal Reserve
52:18
System money expansion in those days
52:20
there were there was a gold standard
52:22
there was various other checks those
52:25
Federal Reserve itself could have going
52:26
bankrupt for example now we have a the
52:30
pod bank deposit insurance and we have
52:32
no ghosts check whatsoever either
52:34
domestic or international and there’s no
52:37
statutory limits the photo Reserve can
52:38
‘kathy racking see right we print you
52:41
know unlimited amounts of money so the
52:43
sky is now the limit
52:44
so I don’t think we’ll ever get a 1929
52:47
type depression because yeah I think
52:50
maybe much worse I think that easy the
52:53
unfortunate part met you upon notices
52:56
will be hyper or runaway inflation I
52:58
don’t think we have to get there if we
53:00
have the will and once we rise up and
53:02
say stop some way or another but but
53:05
that would be the eventual course a
53:07
trouble is most my Austrian colleagues
53:09
are hard money colleagues when they come
53:10
to this conclusion they get a little
53:12
hopped up about they get so enamored of
53:14
this analysis they say in six months we
53:16
gonna have not only inflation doesn’t
53:17
work that fast slow cumulative punch
53:20
process which that finally reaches a
53:22
critical mass not go up so it takes a
53:25
long time but we’ll know it when we get
53:27
into the critical point by the way the
53:32
critical point comes when the for
53:33
example the 1923 when the motivation was
53:37
just beginning to take whole in Germany
53:38
what happens as prices begin to go out
53:40
much faster than money supply and what
53:43
maybe somebody’s might leave made your
53:44
core that can again I can’t go another
53:45
point out why this is true the increase
53:49
in might finds the cause of increasing
53:50
prices what happens is after inflation
53:53
has proceeded for many years people
53:55
their place your expectations then take
53:56
over people out spend money as fast as
53:58
they can if they know damn well the
53:59
price will be twenty percent more next
54:01
week right and so but at that point
54:04
people experience what they call a
54:05
shortage of money when we now call a
54:07
liquidity crunch whatever you want to
54:09
call it haven’t enough money to pay for
54:11
the high prices they then call upon the
54:13
government the several bank that supply
54:14
them all the money okay a 1923 rule of
54:17
Hovind on the head of the several rights
54:19
bank made a famous speech which he said
54:21
don’t worry folks he said of course much
54:23
more pedantic German don’t worry folks
54:26
we realize you’re suffering from money
54:28
shortage we will print unlimited amounts
54:29
of money and say you can catch up
54:34
kill him until money supply catches up
54:36
with prices important results with this
54:38
strain bingo two trillion marks the
54:40
bicycle bubbling God so now that you
54:44
think this is crazy at me when I tell us
54:45
my students say they laugh in superior
54:47
fashion of course we never say that now
54:49
in 1973 or 74 I guess it was when we had
54:53
our first double-digit and peacetime
54:54
double edged digit inflation on the
54:56
Nixon Walter Haller distinguished former
54:59
chairman handsome economy advisors wrote
55:01
an article in the Federal Reserve Bank
55:02
Philadelphia quarterly review in which
55:04
he said as follows money supply can’t be
55:07
the cause of higher prices because it’s
55:08
prices going out faster in the last year
55:11
or so the money supply
55:12
therefore and matter of fact the Federal
55:14
Reserve has a responsibility to keep
55:15
pumping more money and until real cash
55:18
balances catch up with the status quo
55:19
which means just saying it more
55:21
sophisticated economic jargon which
55:23
averaged I said before and I’ve Heller
55:25
I’ve been running the economy we might
55:27
have four we might have the
55:29
hyperinflation right now fortunately he
55:30
wasn’t working he was a harmless
55:33
professor in university Minnesota but I
55:35
mean it’s it can get that close to
55:37
saying what people thought thinking that
55:38
I kind of turns
56:25
yeah I would make the qualification and
56:27
what you mean by government I don’t want
56:29
to be picky about this none of I mean I
56:33
just want no no no no I mean my number
56:36
by government and a fine government as
56:37
being a tax authority which acquires its
56:41
revenue by means of course my taxes okay
56:44
I don’t buy government I don’t mean
56:46
police police agencies guards Pinkertons
56:49
courts things like that because that
56:51
because they could be obviously one in
56:53
heaven on a private basis my government
56:55
know what I mean a tax coerced
56:57
organization okay I just want to be made
57:01
clear that’s something I guess Wow all
57:05
right look the puns I hate to find
57:09
government i define government huh i
57:11
define government as an institution
57:14
which acquires its revenue by by theft
57:18
by coercion and the only institution a
57:20
society except the Mafia language which
57:24
is not a respectable legitimate decision
57:26
okay everybody else acquires our income
57:29
either by sale of product or service or
57:31
by monetary contributions from members
57:33
or donors only the government don’t
57:36
remember is the only institution of
57:38
society of all the numerous institutions
57:39
we have political social whatever the
57:42
only institution acquires its revenue
57:44
might get it going out there and forcing
57:45
you to pay up you don’t pay you have to
57:47
go to jail that’s right okay so I mean
57:50
that would be a clear there’s nothing
57:52
like a poster example of carrying the
57:54
mail or fighting fire or LAN I think
57:55
they can be done much better or more
57:57
morally in a private place marketplaces
57:59
I’m a favor of everything being
58:00
marketable
58:14
right that’s right right you know well
58:29
they hadn’t they had right they had
58:32
private positive land until uh late
58:34
1950s which was the great great poet
58:38
errant what weight lead forward before
58:41
that it was it was really a semi
58:42
socialist economy and any in a technical
58:44
sense no they had lots of private
58:46
merchants private plots of land all that
58:48
there’s only a greatly for the mouths
58:50
decided to crush everything in
58:51
collective I’ve never even remember
58:53
every farm have its own steel plant well
58:56
that that was a total collapse penny
58:58
right and then came the corollary close
59:00
revolution which was even more messy so
59:02
what they’re getting back to essentially
59:04
is the pre great great coach great leap
59:07
forward kind of system they haven’t done
59:10
it yet are they planning because
59:11
presumably on the path to getting back
59:13
to a semi market now how much how much
59:14
would be I don’t know certainly their
59:16
their their doctrines now are pretty
59:18
good to that point of view in other
59:20
words a capitalism that’s what happens a
59:21
capitalism from a chicken is ability to
59:22
each according to Bill of Rights that’s
59:24
what happens on the market so I don’t
59:27
know how far that gap because if you
59:28
allow that one subtle a leak to run
59:30
everything obviously they can make they
59:32
can go off again it can decide next year
59:34
well you know the other gun men and
59:36
Shang was really great for a minimum Mao
59:38
is really great chunk Ching is really
59:39
great and then she’s back again and
59:41
crushes everybody so you can’t trust
59:42
them I certainly the course that Ron now
59:44
is infinitely better than thing where
59:45
you know two years ago there’s really a
59:48
sort of heroic thing if considering the
59:49
bunch out paying in the current chairman
59:52
is totally reversed the Chinese system
59:54
from a total slave state to only partial
59:57
slave state
59:58
but parts of mark and enemy which is a
60:00
big change you look at an historical
60:03
process it was kind of heroic act
60:05
there’s also heroic active now to try to
60:07
crush everything and I was totally nutty
60:09
and crazy sometimes heroism so slides
60:12
over to being nuts
60:17
no no no it’s not a good consumer goods
60:25
are good right we decide that consumer
60:33
goods are good in fact I think wrote an
60:35
article a couple years ago after a
60:37
gunshot pain came in that but we really
60:40
like to have a sort of this sort of
60:41
society and they spell it out it sounds
60:43
like New York in 1970 or something like
60:45
that so another word they really change
60:48
the philosophic orientation tremendously
60:50
and obviously the social pattern hasn’t
60:52
changed that much but the direction of
60:56
course not much better I don’t know if
61:00
Shirley MacLaine will go out there and
61:01
love them again like she loved them now
61:02
people most least tell me this country’s
61:26
is those enormous black market you have
61:28
to realize sistex are shaky because I
61:31
mean understand that Russia for example
61:33
would not really operate without a black
61:35
mark what happens if the managers have
61:36
to fill their quotas my god I haven’t
61:38
told my quota guys through 60 days to go
61:40
and wait behind and heroic entrepreneur
61:42
pops up so Mohnish you want to fulfill
61:45
your quota I got 30 good men here will
61:47
work so 50 hours a week fulfill your
61:49
quota oh you have toons to pay me a
61:51
hundred thousand rubles out of the
61:52
teller
61:53
thank God or thanks Brezhnev a lot I
61:55
mean thanks to you takes a hundred
61:57
thousand a day pays them and that says
61:59
all under the table so very illegal but
62:01
it’s done all the time it’s called
62:02
blocked yeah I can’t pronounce Russian
62:05
that’s that and so the whole system is
62:07
rife with black market and and that’s a
62:12
it’s the only way I can really
62:13
accomplish anything but I mean the
62:15
Yugoslavia to our way the philosophic
62:17
when they started shifting the economic
62:19
picture they started saying
62:21
philosophically the individual is more
62:23
important than the collective they say
62:24
things like that which is
62:25
total Harris a feeling I mean its point
62:27
of view so that’s very interesting made
62:29
some wrong I think see I think it’s an
62:31
inspiring development one of the
62:32
problems I find with conservatives in
62:33
general is that when a company goes
62:35
communist I figure that’s it the iron
62:37
door is closed and it’s ruined forever
62:40
more we may have all nuke them it’s not
62:44
true because soaps and socialism fools
62:45
apart doesn’t work and since it it goes
62:48
against the human spirit I’m not very
62:51
optimistic that the freedom will pop up
62:52
and I think it has in these countries is
62:54
the direction starts changing rapidly
62:56
again well apologies these is a general
63:03
term for socialist planning failure of
63:05
the socialist planning and failure
63:08
allocate labor right I mean it’s what
63:11
they gonna do with a workers see the
63:13
Polish disease a general there’s a
63:15
general problem what do you do with
63:18
government of quote unions of government
63:20
employees if you have a union and a kind
63:21
of private company at the Union the man
63:24
is at 20% wage increase the fire company
63:26
said well gee we can’t do that because
63:27
it’ll bankrupt us you can only get 10%
63:29
they agree on 12 or something but in the
63:33
government situation where the taxpayer
63:34
pays how do you know how much to pay the
63:36
co-worker there’s really no criterion
63:39
and so how do you know how much to pay
63:42
the Polish miners or whoever so honey
63:45
how much to pay you know some some Clark
63:47
and the Civil Service in Washington
63:49
there’s no real and start selling
63:51
socialist country there’s no market
63:53
guide it’s all arbitrary so in a sense
63:56
they have an insoluble problem why sure
63:58
that Kim is no way to there’s no way a
63:59
combat unionism in socialist country
64:02
interestingly enough even though it’s
64:04
supposed to be the Banger coming
64:05
supposed to be the vanguard working
64:06
class the government supposed to be
64:08
handling everything and paying out money
64:10
getting production how do you how do you
64:11
deal with the Union what’s that a
64:12
bargain about he’s a little thin air hot
64:15
air there’s no profit there’s no Lois
64:18
you can’t say where people lose money
64:19
nobody loses money for it’s all very
64:22
vague and
64:26
well I don’t know it’s a big mess I’m
64:28
not really an expert on the Polish
64:30
economy per se when I met by a Polish
64:32
disease sort of the general problem
64:34
socialism so I really have to defer to
64:36
somebody else in that yeah I don’t want
64:46
to get in the entire an actual offense
64:47
problem now as you can imagine it’s
64:49
fairly complex but I don’t I don’t think
64:52
there are such things as public goods
64:53
ever first place
64:55
supposing I’m a pacifist and I never saw
64:58
my best friends were pacifists and so a
65:02
pacifist who thinks all the violence is
65:03
evil it’s not a public that it’s a
65:05
public bad it’s probably evil he’s being
65:07
taxed to increase what he thinks is evil
65:10
and destructive investing so and if you
65:14
have at least one pacifist in any
65:15
country I don’t think we can indicate at
65:18
least one passes the United States and
65:19
the whole thing that’s shot you’re out
65:24
yeah
65:38
yeah yeah Isle of Wight Martin oh yeah
65:41
I’m just using a common term I mean it’s
65:44
it’s one thing it’s the problem
65:45
communication if I talk about white
65:46
market nobody knows that well I think
65:50
Mike Martz it right there are the white
65:52
markets of a market popping up on the
65:54
terrible suppress can oppressive
65:56
conditions the market pops up again
65:58
Daniel I know I think it’s great it’s
66:19
terrific it’s great microcosm because
66:22
it’s an area where every single facet I
66:25
could spend a whole lecture on lab very
66:26
easily every single facet of solar
66:28
energy price was created by the
66:29
government everyone
66:31
99 percent by the American government
66:32
about temper that one percent by the
66:34
Arab governments okay and it’s all
66:37
government image there is no energy
66:39
shortage so nonsensical government total
66:42
it’s unbelievable mess image is
66:44
unbelievably just going on and on so
66:47
like talking about an Alice in
66:48
Wonderland picture like a parody of a
66:50
government planning and so it’s it’s
66:53
yeah I think by the way the phrase the
66:55
moral equivalent of war is pure evil
66:57
next time you hear politicians say it
66:59
head for the bunker because welcome what
67:03
I mean exactly what they say they mean
67:06
totalitarian high taxes regulations
67:09
don’t let sort of stuff they mean things
67:10
like I mean for example just by the way
67:13
in the energy crisis I’ll get this off
67:15
my chest because not too many people
67:17
really bellyache the Baptist’s they talk
67:18
about price control on oil and gas or
67:20
gas one of the things that should really
67:21
certainly have the wall then the rate
67:24
fan of I hate heat okay I’m refined cool
67:27
weather one of things with something up
67:29
the walls is the as Jimmy Carter it’s
67:31
totally smashing of air conditioning in
67:33
this country when even he said air
67:36
conditions may not go above America
67:38
below 78 degrees which is worth noting
67:40
it’s like you know it’s it’s amazing
67:42
let’s not have a rule I think he was
67:44
successful in that anything really
67:45
across the country last summer even in
67:48
Nevada even the casinos in a bottle
67:50
I mean it’s really he was going pretty
67:52
far so he was successful in crushing
67:55
air-conditioning that’s just pure
67:57
totalitarian the idea is to make
67:59
everybody feel the sacrifice the
68:01
sacrifice feel the pain by the way the
68:04
Jimmy Carter there’s one custom light
68:08
motif Jimmy Carter’s administration
68:09
which started and in his acceptance
68:11
speech you could pinion on through the
68:12
energy talk you’re talking about ever
68:13
since one of my favorite Publix
68:18
the seen the light motif was by way
68:21
philosophically incorrect to say the
68:23
least well very kindly I feel your pain
68:25
and all that he said that he said that I
68:29
love each and every one of you and I
68:31
feel your pain he said that at his
68:35
acceptance speech and he said I was
68:38
ready to punch this TV screen in right
68:40
he doesn’t feel my pain what is he
68:42
talking him back and it kept st. so that
68:45
the energy speech or and but it was
68:47
really meant was is he obviously got a
68:48
jolly like like us feeling pain there’s
68:53
someone flicked paint on so we can feel
68:55
it so he could feel anyway that was
68:58
right I got all of my check
69:00
yeah
69:20
No
69:21
hold it look look San Francisco has a
69:25
private Police Department or the section
69:28
which works very well he’s paid by
69:31
private people on the neighborhood right
69:32
they pay for the route so somebody
69:34
patrols your neighborhood in even in New
69:37
York which is the moralize at this point
69:39
we had their blocks in New York and
69:42
Manhattan which hire their own private
69:43
policemen because mugging constantly so
69:45
they have this private cop there he
69:47
doesn’t he’s not allowed to carry a gun
69:48
because of the stupid government
69:49
regulation but he’s at least there under
69:51
the booth and so this reduces crime
69:53
almost a zero on that street ok so when
69:56
I’m talking about people will pay for
69:57
services means will pay to be the defend
69:59
themselves ah they will not pay to be
70:02
beaten up because they’re carrying pot
70:03
ok that’s probably saying I got paid for
70:06
that it will pay for services not for
70:08
being oppressed in the case of traffic
70:11
situations entirely of a situation
70:13
traffic traffic is not really police
70:15
function you don’t have that cops and
70:17
running traffic and have meter maids and
70:19
all that because traffic regulations are
70:22
made it has to be made by whoever owns
70:24
the roads right if you have a government
70:26
on the road you have to have a
70:27
government some somebody in the
70:28
government some traffic officer making
70:30
sure there’s no tie up and all that and
70:32
everybody across is a green right that’s
70:34
perfectly legitimate it’s part of the
70:36
road owning function now our place in
70:38
the United States we have private roles
70:39
like shopping centers and things like
70:40
that or private islands there and there
70:43
you have private guards over who run the
70:45
roads make sure this happens so that the
70:48
the road that’s the part of the road
70:50
owning function unfortunate United
70:51
States most roads are owned by
70:52
government doesn’t have to be that way
70:54
we have private roads or private
70:56
highways and you’ll have private guards
70:58
or whatever you want to call them
70:59
traffic officers and perform that
71:01
function where’s what
71:19
I think it’s good that was in his baton
71:22
it was about libertarian porn
71:24
the good news is that we’ve grown a lot
71:27
we the ideas being spread quite a bit
71:30
ideas such as I’ve been emitting tonight
71:33
you see them in places you didn’t see
71:36
before
71:37
thirty years ago I saw the same sort of
71:40
thing that was called either a fascist
71:42
or in the end earth or crazy or both
71:43
three and now the usual reaction is well
71:46
gee I agree a lot of it but I don’t
71:47
think it’s really practical that’s a big
71:49
step forward from the previous reaction
71:51
so the other hand we have certain
71:54
problems in the party or in the movement
71:56
of the party we have certain deficiency
72:00
and knowledge certain lack of reading
72:04
and things like that the sort of thing
72:06
which reflects the flicks of general
72:07
educational system there is a fixed
72:10
Libertarian Party certain sort of
72:12
inattentional ideas and and books and
72:14
things like that if you do that you can
72:17
easily get off the track examples one
72:20
powerful person in one powerful state
72:21
party just said let’s have why we have
72:23
temporary rent control okay now this is
72:27
that that sort of thing from if you have
72:29
you know you don’t have a firm grip on
72:31
the principle it’s easy to sort of slide
72:33
off especially especially you see the
72:34
sure of Plum fairies of love boats a lot
72:37
of money and things coming in something
72:39
has to be guarding against the Jefferson
72:41
set eternal vigilance is the price of
72:42
Liberty right I’m trying to be tunneling
72:45
vigilant okay
72:49
I mean I thought I saw the major problem
73:16
nothing we’re not willing to work for a
73:17
common good I don’t think they were even
73:18
if they were it wouldn’t solve a
73:19
socialist problem they do no way of
73:21
calculating no way of telling what to do
73:23
we see we’re talking about helping the
73:26
poor or solving minor or marginal
73:28
problem that’s something else I’m
73:30
talking now about the general social
73:31
positive institutions of the economic
73:33
system way you’re you know know what to
73:36
do whether you’re told go out and work
73:37
for the collective who’s gonna honey no
73:38
I don’t work for the collective what are
73:39
you supposed to do the bat right
73:41
he’s supposed to spend a little time
73:42
helping with wine these places work on
73:44
Purdue’s steel and what are you supposed
73:45
to do sing and if the market doesn’t
73:47
tell you what to do so to speak and some
73:49
committee some arbitrary totalitarian
73:52
committees gonna tell you what to do and
73:52
they they don’t know what to do either
73:54
that’s what essentially what I said as
73:55
far as things like special problems in
73:58
the market market solves them much more
74:00
much more readily than any kind of
74:01
government first place the market
74:03
creates a much more productive system
74:05
standard living goes way up if you have
74:07
a generally affluent society we
74:09
basically have in the United States
74:10
today it’s much easier to solve problems
74:12
of poverty or a handicapped or something
74:14
if you’re back at 1500 every night
74:16
starving everybody’s starving it’s not
74:18
molten there’s not much surplus love
74:19
over to help blind people or anything
74:21
else so the more affluent society is
74:24
much more likely you’ll have to have
74:25
these problems and saw also private
74:28
groups in which were much better at this
74:29
than government at least government
74:31
welfare is set up on the basis
74:35
first of all government is unlimited
74:36
funds I mean they get funds in the
74:38
taxpayer okay
74:39
so the government social workers
74:41
position is they essentially want to
74:43
maximize their own income and power and
74:46
so they go out there they want to they
74:47
want to keep they want to find clients
74:49
so go and keep them there so so they
74:51
keep their income and power up I see you
74:55
have a situation where a welfare people
74:57
are so sucked in in the system and kept
74:58
there in order that’s in order in order
75:01
to give power and it kind of
75:03
the social workers on the anti-poverty
75:05
work whereas a private charity system
75:08
tries to get these people to help
75:09
themselves as quickly as possible get
75:11
them on their feet and out of this thing
75:13
as quickly as possible which was the pre
75:14
1933 system very distinct question my
75:58
Xander spooner said there’s several
75:59
classes of people who support the state
76:02
they’re the naves who who get money and
76:05
power out of it the ruling class and
76:07
they’re the dupes were sucked into this
76:10
or who fooled into thinking this is
76:12
really a great system and then of course
76:14
is the third minority a third group of
76:16
people who know what’s going on or two
76:17
correlated say anything about it instead
76:19
of most of the population and I
76:23
specifically I know I’m not sure what
76:25
motivates them who knows about motivates
76:26
other people a very chancy kind of
76:29
analysis but I think some of it
76:33
obviously some of the error and others
76:35
are the others of it is deliberate
76:38
I can’t imagine like for example I mean
76:40
just given instance go back to John
76:42
Kenneth Galbraith John Kenneth Galbraith
76:44
has made a literal fortune millions of
76:47
millions of dollars made a career and a
76:50
fortune of denouncing affluence
76:53
a guy has got a guy’s got mansions in
76:58
three or four countries you know he skis
77:01
Gustad you know for three months every
77:03
year he’s done another what packing a
77:05
salon I can’t believe this is only
77:07
honest error I just can’t believe it so
77:11
you have in other words a conscious
77:12
ruling class who’s raking in the shekel
77:15
one other thing I’m trying to write a
77:16
book on the progressive period which is
77:17
the origins of statism in this country
77:20
basically 1900 1920 I mean one of the
77:23
interesting things about this period one
77:24
into the origins he’s sort of see the
77:26
thing happening embryo only evil things
77:28
start at that point when the interesting
77:30
thing is a science of public relations
77:32
having had minute even our method yet
77:33
people will pity out front while there
77:35
was what they wanna do is everybody
77:37
honest and candid for example it someday
77:39
would be the president or the American
77:41
Society of Civil Engineers need say we
77:44
are civil engineers this is a complex
77:45
economy therefore we should run the
77:47
society we should have power in the
77:49
physician inside that psychiatrist so
77:51
that everybody that’s a grab power and
77:53
love from them pretty honest about so
77:56
nowadays of course you don’t say things
77:57
like that because your PR pushing the
78:00
planets that’s unknown no but I think
78:02
the thing is a lot involved in that
78:05
think that it was said that they Lyndon
78:07
Johnson’s war against poverty the only
78:09
property he relieve is the war it was
78:10
the poverty of anti-poverty social
78:12
workers hey we’ve got a huge amount of
78:14
grants and don’t know what job grants in
78:17
the whole thing flowing in there and who
78:18
their coffers and so I think I think
78:24
it’s pretty clear on obviously a lot of
78:26
misguided idealist so we’re gonna take
78:28
the wrong path no question about that
78:30
we shouldn’t overlook one of my
78:32
criticisms of Hayek for example his
78:34
great book the Road to Serfdom he starts
78:35
off by saying that he really starts off
78:38
by saying well
78:39
socialists or just the great people
78:41
engaged in this error and it’s too bad
78:44
it has Aryans tronic convert alone I
78:45
don’t think that’s really whole story
78:47
that’s just pure so I think he now
78:51
admits that
79:16
well it certainly might be a logic also
79:18
of course involved there’s there for
79:21
example is I mean I like to think that
79:24
both conservatives and liberals want to
79:26
put people in a cage with different
79:27
kinds of cages in other words liberals
79:31
won’t outlaw at the back of smoking
79:32
could serve as one outlawed pot smoking
79:34
and that really hasn’t much difference I
79:36
mean there’s a whole set of cages that
79:38
each one wants this what this put people
79:41
in and really the and really the the
79:44
logical conclusion is that all the stuff
79:46
you have to outlaw eating and sugar or
79:49
all that suppose the real the real
79:50
conclusion was stuff everybody should be
79:51
sittin in cage and dole out the proper
79:53
balanced diet of vitamins and yogurt and
79:56
whatever and whatever the other whatever
79:58
each group wants to go after them
79:59
because that’s better flow even if it is
80:01
better for him which is a dubious
80:03
question people have a right to pursue
80:06
their own life run their own life
80:08
whether they do well or badly that’s the
80:11
basic libertarian position once you get
80:13
the idea that you know best not only
80:15
know better than the other guy also have
80:16
the right that tell them what to do then
80:18
you’re in big trouble then each group
80:20
once on yeah this guy should bow to
80:21
Mecca three times a day and we have a
80:23
good 2 million magnets top out to see
80:25
that he doesn’t so that’s another thing
80:28
so drive for power over other people
80:57
well the market is not really impersonal
80:59
market well the market really is is and
81:02
this one being free is really it’s a
81:03
tremendous and very efficient degree and
81:05
excellent information spreading the
81:07
Weisse people know what’s going on much
81:10
more than any other kind of system not
81:13
just the press roll attila prices the
81:14
myosource stuff so what you have is a
81:16
lot of information being being that you
81:18
know this information is finding person
81:19
there are people on the market there’s
81:21
nothing on the market which says that
81:22
you and I can’t get together and form a
81:23
society for the a blind people I’m I
81:26
think it’s being done along with time
81:27
and this is what what happened that did
81:29
happen before I’m gonna happen even more
81:31
now the point is that in the end the
81:33
market that provides the affluence and
81:34
the information to make it much easier
81:36
to do that no no it’s not Karen I mean
81:41
look the point is presumably as a
81:43
charitable impulse and most people most
81:45
people express the same sort of
81:46
sentiment you do and it hasn’t been if
81:48
you look at past history before the New
81:49
Deal before government relief came in
81:51
those lots of private charity and relief
81:53
accept point is as as affluence becomes
81:59
greater on a free market system this
82:02
provides more room feels kind of
82:04
behavior for activity and also you don’t
82:05
tax away everybody’s incomes they can do
82:07
that yeah sorry there’s no absolute
82:10
guarantees but it’s certainly concede me
82:14
seems very plausible that would happen
82:16
because it’s always been happening every
82:19
other country that couldn’t even do it
82:22
huh any country has I mean the Red Cross
82:28
and the Community Chest my god I mean
82:31
there’s not a whole Westham in American
82:32
Cancer Society not that I think they’re
82:34
so great but the point is there’s a
82:35
whole group fantastic number of private
82:38
welfare agencies and other countries
82:41
would be England and Western Europe
82:43
secular and those countries which are
82:45
more a salon not much five above fairies
82:47
going down I’m going on in Zambia Zambia
82:49
everybody sort of scrambling a long time
82:51
survive the more athletic country the
82:55
more it tends to be 500 for agencies
83:17
think okay
83:19
they don’t have to look at anything they
83:20
forget all this they could just stop
83:21
buying assets it’s very simple it tell
83:24
the Federal Reserve give them a
83:26
commandment right don’t buy any more
83:29
assets that’s it we don’t have to look
83:31
at anything I don’t worry about em one
83:32
in three are listed just don’t find any
83:34
more assets just get out of get get out
83:36
of our lives that’s all I have to do I
83:40
mean the richest are think they should
83:41
be abolished there’s a short-term
83:42
immediate solution just tell them don’t
83:45
pass a law just give them an order
83:48
don’t buy anymore I says don’t buy any
83:49
more of some government securities don’t
83:51
buy anymore
83:52
Bank advances and loans they said just
83:55
get out just shut up and get out and
83:57
leaving
84:14
all right yeah in the first place of
84:18
fire I was just thinking about on the
84:19
plane coming over supply-side economics
84:20
is a very peculiar rubric has sort of a
84:24
Portland code term okay it’s really
84:26
quite almost anything in the very broad
84:29
sense supply-side economics mean being
84:31
concerned with increasing production
84:32
okay sir the supply side of the economy
84:36
of the production rather than demand or
84:38
money or fiscal policy well in that
84:40
sense made a lot of left-wing
84:42
supply-side they’re the income policy
84:44
pipeline Mary Bosworth supply sign means
84:46
we have to have an income spot have wage
84:47
price control and foresee people of
84:50
Olivar there’s also the guys want to
84:51
have to come on a billion dollars
84:53
subsidies this this industry in that and
84:55
it’s also supply-side
84:56
so these guys of course are outside will
84:59
pay on them but they’re all around
85:00
everywhere it’s very confusing the term
85:02
supply side covers all these people
85:05
reindustrialization we do it by having
85:07
government subsidies and planning and we
85:09
think we sit here in Washington we think
85:10
of the syn fuel program should go and
85:12
the other program shouldn’t and
85:13
Chryslers you know the big bailout
85:15
whatever it so we ignore that I just
85:17
want to say that’s a big thing in a
85:19
supply-side field it’s sort of a
85:21
fashionable term that everybody rushes
85:23
into it okay now the Monaro supply-side
85:27
I suppose as Lee is the Laffer curve a
85:33
concept of a big tax cut will increase
85:38
government revenue proportionally so
85:40
that even more so that because will free
85:43
the economy in the end and increase
85:46
saving and Horton worked and so for and
85:48
so on so that you wind up with even
85:50
greater total revenue you had before the
85:52
Laffer curve is essentially the way out
85:54
of the pants thoughtful way out of the
85:55
way by which the Republican candidates
85:58
last election could could square the
86:00
circle like the thing always impressed
86:02
me is Mary McGraw I don’t watch I hate
86:04
to watch politicians ever might happen
86:06
to watch the bigger than Iowa at the
86:07
Bates you remember them the eight guys
86:10
were ever does in public in Canada
86:11
miriam of Rory gets up and excellent she
86:14
did
86:14
excellent question she says mister Bush
86:16
over
86:17
rescuing them through everybody you’re
86:20
all promising the following things a big
86:22
tax cut right balanced budget right and
86:26
keeping the same level of government
86:27
services right sounds like a
86:29
contradiction to me how you gonna do all
86:30
this
86:31
uh-huh they were brought in the Laffer
86:32
curve they didn’t mention laughing they
86:34
said well you see if you cut cut tax
86:36
rates revenue would be so great over
86:38
watch all of that now first place
86:42
there’s no evidence for this all right I
86:44
mean I’m not saying it’s inconceivable
86:46
that what happened there’s no evidence
86:47
for whatsoever I don’t think it would
86:49
really happen I think see that so far
86:51
it’s some smart left of the economist we
86:54
don’t think it exists I mean but some
86:55
smart of the economy yeah yeah the way
86:58
he cover he or she could rebuttal
87:00
afro-caribbean follow okay let’s test
87:01
elaborate curve fella let’s do it the
87:03
other way around with raise income taxes
87:05
by 20% and see if revenue falls off I’ll
87:08
bet your bottom dollar the wooden floor
87:11
let’s see that’s that’s the way they
87:13
could they could have Fox laugh where
87:14
they haven’t done it yet but I don’t
87:17
wanna actually publicize that somebody
87:21
right now I personally am a favor of any
87:24
tax cut anytime anywhere right a favor
87:27
of cutting marginal taxes total taxes
87:29
depreciation all houses anything of any
87:32
size so I’m simplifies the lack of
87:34
people in that respect I’m not in favor
87:36
of cutting taxes regardless what happens
87:37
with a budget on the other hand because
87:39
I’m for what the e-myth is a big bigger
87:41
deficit which I think there would be why
87:43
should that tax be better than a deficit
87:45
in taxes pure evil if episode of just
87:47
half evil in other words at least if
87:51
you’ve happened that either Defensor
87:52
inflationary at least if even if you’re
87:56
if you’re you’re wonder brave and that
87:57
costs $2 of local set of subjects from
88:00
law because of the deficit at least
88:01
you’re still getting one the bread the
88:02
plaques are you getting nothing so that
88:03
heartache so know where the tax is the
88:06
worst possible thing on the other hand I
88:09
think that that Laffer curve is pure
88:10
dumb I go gee I think they know it I
88:12
think these people really know it I
88:13
really do I think that I think it’s pure
88:14
political demagogic and so because I’ve
88:18
asked I asked laughter I met him at
88:20
Chicago I asked him well look supposing
88:21
and visiting work exposing you on the
88:23
other side of Africa and will say you
88:25
know there’s no time to mention in life
88:27
in other words he really says is
88:29
instantaneous I mean obviously it’s not
88:31
gonna be nice if you can’t gear up a
88:32
produce twice as much in two and two
88:34
weeks maybe work at five years know it’s
88:38
what’s the instantaneous so I asked him
88:40
and this is the position urban crystal
88:42
takes is sort of the Guru the political
88:44
philosophy guru love a sub points of
88:46
life for people and they both have
88:48
really the same answer they really say
88:49
it’s all dumb ago you know wasn’t really
88:50
say well laughs oh really said what look
88:51
by the time they get the tax cut they’ll
88:54
still love it so much it wouldn’t care
88:55
about the deficit the revenue that’s
89:00
really what a master was always shucks
89:01
it’s a scam the whole thing is his skin
89:04
and I know and even though in a sense
89:07
I’m sympathetic cuz I like to see taxes
89:08
cut anyway it really repels against you
89:10
I don’t wanna be a cliche preacher I’ve
89:14
been yeah some people might remember in
89:16
public memory might be short remembered
89:19
for six months boy got it by god it
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doesn’t work we cut taxes and I remember
89:23
you fell off then we’re then we’re suck
89:26
so I that’s private private private
89:54
education is a long tradition too
89:55
fortunately boom be beautiful I’m look
90:01
public education I mean nobody I don’t
90:03
know how it is here I come from New York
90:04
I’ve met that’s a sort of a skewed
90:06
sample because in New York nobody nobody
90:08
says that kids get educated at all
90:10
that’s out well I’m but but but I mean
90:14
it’s a multi-billion dollar school
90:16
system most Ania ten an education
90:19
conference a couple years ago with which
90:21
included liberals leftist right-wingers
90:23
the whole spectrum people and they
90:25
started off by stipulating they admitted
90:27
all of them admitted the public schools
90:28
don’t educate right they stipulate okay
90:31
we admit they don’t educate however what
90:33
was the argument the organ of the
90:34
Liberals the last people left really in
90:36
favor the public school system the
90:38
argument they gave in favor of public
90:39
education was that man
90:40
babysitting advice you get them you get
90:44
the kids out of your hair for eight
90:46
hours or whatever the taxpayers pay for
90:47
it that’s really even ransom because you
90:49
because they can but they burn the
90:51
public school they can pick up on three
90:52
weeks at Berlitz or at some course or
90:55
whatever so now of course my answer that
90:59
is in New York New York City where we’re
91:01
on the cutting edge of America there’s
91:03
no no babysitting function you can get
91:05
it’s worth your life another public
91:06
school system in New York so anybody who
91:09
can possibly do it gets their kid out of
91:10
public school and gets him in the
91:11
private school even though of course you
91:13
paying bubble you’re paying the taxes of
91:15
the rotten public school system plus the
91:16
solution at the head of the private
91:18
school says Ohio an advocate as a
91:20
transition this innocence is to have tax
91:23
credits for private tuition on the words
91:24
if you pay five thousand dollars a year
91:27
for private school you should be able to
91:28
deduct that from your income tax well if
91:30
the top not deductible but if the tax
91:32
code will pop up
91:42
look if put it this way supposing if you
91:46
have there’s all sorts of controversial
91:48
things about education I mean there’s a
91:50
whole bunch of topics which you can go
91:52
either way and have traditional or
91:53
progressive education sex education or
91:55
no taxation religious education or no
91:57
religious education a whole bunch of
91:59
things right whichever way any public
92:01
school system the side somebody’s gonna
92:02
be hurt some large group of parents and
92:04
children be hurt because they’re witches
92:05
will be overridden if you have a private
92:07
school system anybody going to any darn
92:09
school in one the religious school which
92:11
is people support religious schools and
92:13
whatever you have a whole spectrum of
92:15
squirrels fulfilling the desires of the
92:18
various groups of parents and students
92:20
you can’t have that public school system
92:22
however way they decide something some
92:24
large group of people are gonna be
92:25
smashed will feel they’ve been oppressed
92:28
whether by the decision even have a
92:29
great public even everything else is
92:31
great you still have inherent nature of
92:33
the public school system that its
92:35
coercing a whole bunch of people either
92:37
majority or a large minority of parents
92:39
and students you don’t have it it’s like
92:42
look it’s as well it’s as if there’s
92:45
only one bread in the world the the
92:47
tradition has always been the government
92:49
always makes bread everything else is
92:50
free we’re gonna make
92:52
and then the question is what kind of
92:53
brother they make and is a big country
92:54
there’s only one bread for each city or
92:57
each town should be one of the bread
92:59
hikes would be Pepperidge Farms will be
93:01
this health crap and lots of thing and
93:03
as a bit as a big conflict over this
93:07
right however it whichever way the
93:08
government decides a lot of parents a
93:10
lot of red users will be will be your
93:12
press friends they won’t be able to get
93:13
the bread thing one so as soon as you
93:16
have gentlemen you have a you have a
93:17
course of decision almost automatically

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