How Murray Rothbard Became a Libertarian | Murray N. Rothbard

A prolific author and Austrian economist, Murray Rothbard promoted a form of free-market anarchism he called “anarcho-capitalism.”In this talk, given at the 1981 National Libertarian Party Convention, Rothbard tells the story of how he came to learn about economics and libertarianism as he grew up in the Bronx and attended Columbia University in the 1930s and 40s. He reminisces about meeting Frank Chodorov, Baldy Harper, George Stigler and Ludwig von Mises, and takes a number of audience questions.

Source: How Murray Rothbard Became a Libertarian – YouTube

http://www.readrothbard.com/how-murray-rothbard-became-a-libertarian-murray-n-rothbard

TRANSCRIPT
00:06
you’ve read a lot about Murray you
00:09
probably have read a lot about some of
00:13
the things that he has done for the
00:15
movement some of the things that he has
00:17
always been so excellent at keeping us
00:20
on line
00:21
he is radical he’s charming and he is
00:26
warm and also he and I can see eye to
00:30
eye so we don’t have to adjust the
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microphone
00:39
Marie is a special friend regardless of
00:43
the optical illusion and I think that
00:46
after you have the opportunity to visit
00:48
with him tonight and I’d like the
00:50
environment to be like that that you too
00:52
will come to care for him as much as
00:55
many of us do the format for tonight
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since we couldn’t really put you around
01:02
on cushions and move the tables and have
01:04
a fireplace and a little wine and all is
01:06
that basically Murray’s going to talk to
01:08
you for a while just for a while and
01:11
then we have some floor mics set up and
01:13
you’re going to have the opportunity to
01:15
talk to him and Marie always responds
01:23
this is one of those special historical
01:27
events as part of our tenth anniversary
01:29
convention that doesn’t really have
01:32
anything to do with a lot of the
01:34
politics that we might get involved with
01:36
over the course of the next few days or
01:38
some of the things that you might have
01:39
read this is for you getting to know
01:43
Murray and for Murray to hear what
01:45
you’re thinking about I guess the very
01:48
first thing that I ever read by Murray
01:50
was for a new Liberty and it’s been said
01:53
that that book alone probably has
01:55
converted more people to libertarian
01:57
philosophy than any other piece of
01:59
literature but Murray of course never
02:02
stopped with that he is probably the
02:04
most prolific writer of any of us in the
02:07
movement and has published in just about
02:09
every journal small magazine some people
02:13
call them rags as well as having his own
02:16
volumes there isn’t much more that I can
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tell you about him since you know so
02:22
much it’s with a great deal of pleasure
02:26
that I share with you tonight one of my
02:29
best friends Murray Rothbard
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[Applause]
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[Music]
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[Applause]
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03:15
Thank You victory but thank you very
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much I’m al for a lovely lovely
03:22
introduction and this is really a
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nostalgia City here for me tonight
03:27
keeping with the occasions of being your
03:30
LP 10 convention and so I’m gonna do is
03:34
go back and talk about the old days and
03:38
whatever prominence I have a libertarian
03:41
movement is probably mostly due to the
03:42
fact that I’ve been around more than
03:43
anybody else so like I can’t talk about
03:46
the old days and and be given new
03:50
information two things two landmarks for
03:54
me so struck me as that the movement is
03:56
really grown tremendously and last 20
03:58
years or so actually more than that to
04:02
sort of landmark to stick in my mind one
04:03
is that when I was sitting around my
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living room I ate ate this eight
04:08
associates and colleagues which I
04:10
thought was a whole movement I’m not
04:12
saying was the homeland I just didn’t
04:13
know about anybody else I’m sure they’re
04:14
all their living rooms around all over
04:16
the place I just never heard of them and
04:19
we used to joke around a lot about what
04:21
future historians would write about us
04:23
and of course was just considered a big
04:25
big yuk because you know a crackpot
04:30
sitting around in the living room
04:31
talking about wild ideas I was sort of
04:35
like an inside I gotta make joke but
04:37
what happened about them but like I
04:39
guess six or seven years ago a friend of
04:40
mine as a professional historian started
04:43
attacking me one and I keep all those
04:44
precious memorabilia from the old days
04:46
the early history of the movement and I
04:48
realized by God future stories are now
04:50
interested so that’s that that wasn’t
04:52
one landmark second landmark for me was
04:56
that considering again that started off
04:59
with you know two or three people and
05:01
then escalated to eight about after
05:03
about ten years the was the first time
05:08
about ten years I was attacked by
05:10
another budding libertarian for not
05:12
being a pure off-board Ian I was
05:16
I can see it I said that was if I was a
05:19
real shocker room and after I got over
05:24
the first shock I realized well this is
05:26
great you have a the moon was really
05:27
advanced or I could be attacked for not
05:29
being a pure warning the okay the first
05:33
thing in the old days we used to ask
05:35
people when we found another libertarian
05:37
which was a very rare occasion like one
05:39
a year the first thing we asked him or
05:41
her was well how did you get started you
05:43
become a libertarian because there’s
05:44
obviously a rare event I’m not sure
05:46
whether you people ask each other that
05:47
these days and not or not but I’m
05:50
looking for the great day in the future
05:52
after I figure out now on a transition
05:53
period and some day not-too-distant
05:56
future
05:56
just you know just be a matter of course
05:58
everybody’s a libertarian you were
05:59
trying to figure out why is this person
06:00
not a libertarian so however in the old
06:03
days that was the big big question how
06:06
had your book odd you get how’d you get
06:08
how’d you get here and so what I’m gonna
06:10
do tonight is sort of take you back how
06:12
I know how I got how I got started which
06:14
is major area of my own expertise the
06:20
well first place I started off I think
06:24
my first libertarian instincts or
06:26
expressions or whatever came about I was
06:28
a little tyke I first entered of the
06:31
public school system as a young lad and
06:34
hated the guts of it okay first
06:38
experience I had everybody hated the
06:40
teachers I had a value administrators I
06:42
hated my fellow colleagues so I made an
06:47
enormous amount of trouble with my
06:48
parents I finally yanked me out put me
06:50
in a private school which I loved and
06:52
then whatever flourished and so my teeny
06:55
mine immediately made a connection
06:57
public school bad private school good
07:00
I did not of course articulate that to a
07:10
full system at that point then I was
07:16
growing up you have to really have to
07:17
think back now this is really an act of
07:18
imagination
07:19
historical imagination to recall while
07:22
growing up or to realize we’re growing
07:24
up in New York the in 1930s was like
07:27
1930s and 40s as a young middle-class
07:32
Jewish lad everybody I know this is
07:35
literally everybody friends relatives
07:36
acquaintances whatever it was either a
07:39
communist party member or else was
07:40
thinking about whether they should join
07:42
it am I do I have the spirit enough to I
07:45
have the spunk to join the CP that was
07:47
the that was a range of discussion
07:49
either you were a party member you’re
07:51
puzzling about whether or not you have
07:52
the guts to join it in that atmosphere I
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guess my father was a first libertarian
07:59
I know because he was he was strongly
08:01
opposed to all of us and so the and then
08:07
the spirit I just as I as I like I kept
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shocking them in parties of relatives I
08:12
had I think format for aunts and uncles
08:14
were becoming his party members and
08:16
another you know two or three or four
08:18
were pondering whether or not to join so
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that was I got I got more and more
08:25
obnoxious to these people I was like
08:26
okay keep going
08:28
attacking them and saying this is all
08:30
nonsense of war and so on that was my
08:32
first experience in political action my
08:35
poor beleaguered family actually my
08:38
father’s I said my father William is my
08:40
inspiration for this thing so we got
08:42
along very well and I just an immediate
08:43
nuclear family just the rest of the
08:45
people it was a problem then in a swanky
08:49
private school which Artland which I was
08:51
in roll over everybody except well
08:53
that’s a very peculiar set up a general
08:55
gone great detail but the New York City
08:57
the rich in those days at least rich
09:01
people’s would send their sons you know
09:03
to be a fuel academy or wherever
09:05
whatever you know out of town the prep
09:07
school and the daughter is being
09:09
protected specially protected were sent
09:10
to New York City schools as a result
09:13
since this particular school trying to
09:16
be co-educational there very few boys
09:19
would show up in other words of a big
09:20
boy shortage and so in order to get boys
09:25
to attend the school and make it really
09:27
Co educational they gave a lot of
09:29
scholarships to poor and middle class
09:30
young lads including myself so at any
09:33
rate we had a head of spectral all these
09:34
wealthy extreme liberal types and who
09:38
would be taking this you know taken back
09:40
and forth of school and rolls-royce
09:41
limousines were extreme new dealers or
09:43
communist party types or whatever and I
09:46
would try to go back and forth those
09:47
coming apartment increasingly
09:49
individualistic in pro-capitalist
09:52
the any rate the man I kept dealing with
09:57
these feel like I’m more more pure I was
10:00
particularly interested in economics and
10:02
I remember in the eighth grade I was
10:04
arguing against the capital gains tax
10:06
which Roosevelt was introducing it in
10:07
time
10:08
I don’t remember my arguments I don’t
10:09
over there sound or not but anyway I was
10:11
arguing against it the then it’s true at
10:17
rumors have had it and it’s true that my
10:18
parents both met been an anarchist dance
10:20
this is in 1920 or something like that I
10:25
had to realize the culture that was that
10:27
period and that there were a lot of
10:29
anarchist dances and bulls and things
10:31
like that and it’s truly I met they met
10:35
there and one of the remember one of the
10:38
my father’s library was my first books I
10:40
remember reading was out sparkers we’re
10:42
gonna enter as much right as an exotic
10:44
book I thought was very interesting I
10:46
was not yet converted you noticed I
10:47
wasn’t like 10 or something any right
10:51
but this is nice what’s happen was my
10:55
father was an anarchist for a couple
10:57
years then World War one arriving we
10:59
found all those friends were being
11:00
arrested which I were in opposition War
11:03
II thought it was healthier drop out of
11:05
political activity but could become a
11:06
pure chemist and what he did
11:09
he was there he was first retreated he
11:17
felt were treated was better than
11:18
martyrdom at that point any rate he sort
11:21
of lost it was in politics and then but
11:23
what happened wasn’t in the recession
11:24
1938 when after following Keynesian
11:28
policies we had a big collapse inside of
11:31
the Keynesianism or New Deal was wrong
11:34
and so forth and became a concern okay
11:35
economically conservative and so I
11:38
follow right in there in that spurt
11:41
anyway getting to then I guess what
11:45
happens my next brush with the state
11:47
apparatus came in high school when just
11:50
as I was getting interested on the whole
11:51
subject purely for sociological reasons
11:52
you understand may Allah guardia was
11:55
extremely beloved figure at the time
11:58
among all the left liberal establishment
12:00
male iguana meet Lee close down a
12:02
burlesque houses and I figured I was a
12:05
personal blow a personal affront so was
12:10
my first interest in civil liberties the
12:16
mere you learn from experience
12:18
so when I got to Columbia University I
12:23
found out that the campus of the time
12:26
there were I mean first of all you have
12:27
to literally remember realize literally
12:30
true on the entire campus there were a
12:32
whole bunch of Communists and communist
12:33
fellow travelers a whole bunch of Social
12:36
Democrats and two Republicans the other
12:39
Republic I was one Republican other
12:41
Republican was an English major we had
12:42
been a very much in common time I wasn’t
12:44
interested in literature so that was
12:47
that and Efrain continuing brushes of
12:50
Columbia I got more more conservative
12:53
and more more free market oriented in
12:56
the atmosphere which is extremely those
12:58
days hostile with free market however
13:01
this here’s the situation I I thought it
13:03
was the only free market person in the
13:04
world at that point
13:05
and there weren’t too many evidences you
13:09
know disproven me so when I got to
13:12
graduate school which is I guess 1946
13:14
week and 45 46 all of a sudden there
13:19
appeared is fantastic phenomena I have
13:21
to realize again there’s a huge number
13:22
of huge other people
13:23
and coming back from from from the army
13:27
huge the graduate school is flooded
13:29
probably a peak peak peak number of
13:33
students in all of history 500 people in
13:36
the economic graduating I’ll make some
13:37
class things like that never to be seen
13:39
either before or since and all of them
13:42
were the big argument time was what
13:43
should you join us EP should be a pro
13:45
Henry Wallace or Pro Harry Truman or
13:46
whatever and in that spirit George
13:51
Stigler sangwich Friedman on economists
13:54
they arrived at Columbia University
13:56
campus as first to remembers very
13:59
vividly first two lectures one was on
14:02
the evils of rent control the second was
14:03
a evils a minimum wage which point
14:05
almost a stereo brakes out he was almost
14:06
lynched I mean how many is unhurt I had
14:09
to realize that kind of an active
14:11
imagination realized that’s unheard of
14:12
for any anybody like economist you like
14:16
to think well maybe the Hearst press
14:17
might say it but certainly nobody of
14:19
academic Prudential pretensions so I
14:22
would I wrote away for a pamphlet the
14:24
anti rent control pamphlet which
14:26
Stiegler had mentioned and they might
14:28
discover the movement so my first
14:29
experience movement before that of just
14:31
me my father and that was it far as I
14:33
knew okay two men movement then I
14:39
discovered the foundation for economic
14:40
education which of those days was the
14:42
movement that was it the so is a
14:45
tremendous thing for me was it was like
14:47
that was the Open Sesame I realize all
14:49
the people around weren’t that weren’t
14:50
just one person okay and I think they
14:53
did tremendous there was a tremendous
14:55
achievement in their part they had
14:58
whether that was it that was the
15:00
movement people who would say the same
15:01
sort of things and be interesting and
15:03
and recommend readings I never read any
15:07
of this stuff is all sort of fun and I
15:08
was sort of evolved and no real readings
15:11
on the topics of John Stuart Mill I mean
15:13
nobody since 1848
15:14
far as I know and so with with fee which
15:19
had seminars and cocktail parties and do
15:22
people together and so forth I discover
15:24
the movement and there are marvelous
15:26
particularly more of us to to more of us
15:28
people which I wonder where pay tribute
15:31
to Frank Shorter off and bully Harper
15:34
the Frank Shorter offers a fantastic
15:42
person it was a unbuttoned type in a
15:45
three-button world and scattering ashes
15:49
everywhere and so when saw his
15:51
magnificent and it also was raised in
15:55
discussing ideas many of the other
15:57
people in these cocktail parties really
15:58
not there were more agriculture oriented
16:00
I have nothing against agriculture I
16:02
love agriculture but many of their
16:04
conversations were confined to things
16:06
like agricultural metaphors like the
16:08
seed corn and butterflies I know nothing
16:11
about either a see corn or butterfly
16:12
there’s felt a little bit out of it
16:16
shuttle or being urban type was not
16:18
interested in sea corn any right
16:21
he’s great individualist I recommend his
16:23
just new book of his essays a collected
16:25
essays just come out called fugitive
16:28
essays and it was my first experience in
16:31
radical individualism he was I remember
16:34
as a real shock for me I arrived at the
16:36
Columbia University Bookstore one
16:39
afternoon
16:40
I see a headline and remember the
16:43
pamphlets and remember I remember of us
16:45
the the atmosphere the time a little
16:47
socialist I took to them to a man and I
16:50
see this pamphlet the headline big bull
16:52
red red letters saying don’t buy bonds
16:55
another one saying taxation is robbery
16:58
was real just I was a real shocker roof
17:00
warming I got it as robbery and that was
17:03
my first education and local buckle
17:05
Theory Souter all have had a great
17:09
little magazine board she call analysis
17:11
which he kept going against in his own
17:13
meager funds very well a very small
17:16
circulation and he has a magnificent
17:20
look radical stuff and first of all he’s
17:22
also a great writer marvelously clear
17:24
lucid writer and and so under the Sun of
17:30
the auspices of reading both choro
17:32
analyst stuffy recommended like Albert J
17:33
knock another magnificent political
17:35
floss or and a great writer I hope you
17:38
discover if you don’t know about him yet
17:40
more of us book all our enemy the state
17:42
another great book long memoirs of
17:44
superfluous man
17:46
and HL Mencken is my favorite writer as
17:50
a style qua writer so I was at a very
17:56
short period of time I became a pure
17:57
libertarian other words before that I
17:59
was sort of moving in that direction I
18:00
was a sort of Chamber of Commerce type
18:02
or something like that in a very short
18:06
period of time I became a pure mineral
18:08
kissed
18:08
I mean all-out radical and you know a
18:13
favor repudiating the vet and everything
18:16
else I still wasn’t I’m still as
18:19
America’s I still believe that point
18:20
that the government that should be
18:22
government but strictly confined to
18:23
these police and courts that was it
18:28
the the third person of course won’t pay
18:34
tribute to is another person I met
18:36
through foundation origami education
18:37
namely my great mentor Lili von mises
18:40
this year’s
18:42
[Applause]
18:46
this year is a centennial and say yes it
18:49
really amazing thing considering Mises
18:51
died very few years ago he died almost
18:53
about the same time as the Centennial
18:54
it’s coming up and he I met him through
19:00
fee I heard it I heard that he was
19:01
giving lectures of New York University
19:02
at that point it didn’t the I didn’t
19:05
know he was still alive because he
19:06
wasn’t mentioned in economics courses
19:07
either undergraduate or graduate except
19:10
that somebody would try to show that
19:11
socialism couldn’t work and that had
19:13
been refuted 30 years before and
19:15
therefore that was it so and they told
19:19
me that feat he was coming out with a
19:20
book that for big new book I said what’s
19:22
interesting what’s a what’s it about
19:24
they said everything and then of course
19:27
was human action and first they were
19:30
right the I started taking Mises
19:34
seminars in the 449 1949 which is a
19:37
second year he was giving it and two
19:39
months later so human action came out
19:41
and so the combination has synergistic
19:44
effect to me I was a real conversion
19:47
experience human action I rather the
19:49
thing I think we have to realize I’ve
19:51
gone through all the Graduate economics
19:53
courses right and I was unhappy with all
19:54
of them I felt somehow it was something
19:56
missing somewhere in the picture I was a
19:59
free market person like I didn’t have
20:01
the economic theory background I
20:02
realized these things didn’t work I was
20:03
politically in favor of it but I didn’t
20:06
have the I didn’t really have a
20:07
satisfactory gonna make theory to
20:08
support this and I felt well the
20:12
Keynesian czar right when they attack
20:13
the institutionalists the institution’s
20:15
right on the attack McCain ziens I
20:16
didn’t see any real positive way out and
20:17
so I read human action I say was a real
20:20
conversion experience I read it very
20:21
fast
20:22
and it was really like leading you know
20:23
being a new Bible that was it and so I
20:26
was tremendous experience and at that
20:29
point I became an Austrian and the Me’s
20:30
Sen the providing with a sense for
20:36
vining us with a satisfactory economic
20:37
theory solving all the problems such as
20:39
what about monopolies or what about what
20:42
about business cycles and what about
20:43
that’s not the other thing and providing
20:46
a firm foundation and analysis of human
20:48
action itself the
20:52
Jesus himself another person to pay
20:54
tribute to personally just a magnificent
20:56
person when we used to when we before we
20:59
met Mises me and other people who are
21:03
disciples or potential disciples we were
21:05
pretty quickly in our boots Center one
21:07
friend of mine it was just a kid then it
21:09
just seems like I’m still in high school
21:10
it’s still a great libertarian and he
21:14
wanted to meet me zhis in the worst way
21:16
he couldn’t find what thinking way to do
21:17
it so he shows up at Lisa’s door rings
21:20
the doorbell and Mises opens the door
21:22
says yes and he says I’m selling
21:25
subscriptions of the Freeman now this of
21:26
course is a big joke because thing that
21:28
has no subscriptions me yeah me right
21:32
away for it you get it free but you know
21:34
what else to say
21:37
he’s hopefully hope this would start a
21:39
conversational gambit you know what
21:40
Mises was like well that’s it why you
21:41
just didn’t the Freeman or something
21:42
means that I already have it inside the
21:44
door and the thing Mami’s it says reason
21:52
one of the reasons where everybody’s
21:53
afraid to meet him see he was fiercely
21:55
polemical of course in his writings
21:56
attacking all of his enemies bitterly
21:59
with no with no compromise talking the
22:02
most babblers
22:05
and person i was just the opposite just
22:07
charming wonderful person
22:09
courteous remembering and bringing back
22:12
to us the first the last days of a pre
22:16
World War II World War one Vienna all
22:21
he’s trying to bring out the best
22:22
productivity in his students and the
22:24
students were many of our very dumb many
22:26
of them were packaging majors you know
22:28
that he was he was unfortunately he was
22:32
unfortunately teaching but kind this I
22:34
will never forgive academia for the only
22:37
job he could really find was a job in a
22:39
Business School where most of most
22:42
people were accounting majors of
22:43
packaging major things like that had no
22:44
interest whatsoever about Mises was
22:45
talking about just an easy a for them
22:47
means didn’t know anything about the
22:49
American grading system you know Europe
22:51
and on grade a BC so you used to give
22:53
everybody a s automatically and they
22:56
told them you can’t do that professor
22:58
you can’t it’s okay he’ll I’ll give
23:00
automatic A’s and B’s go down to listen
23:01
Walternate
23:02
so so since he was an easy marker he had
23:07
a lot of fillers in look in this little
23:09
class and and yet he would try or try to
23:12
take your research project yes yes you
23:13
should do such and such and book on
23:15
listen and an article on this was kind
23:18
of pathetic but he didn’t seem to
23:19
realize that he just sailed ahead
23:21
uncomplaining never complained about
23:23
this situation and unfailingly cheerful
23:26
and feelingly telling marvelous
23:29
anecdotes about the old days in vienna
23:31
magnificent like those and generally
23:35
being extremely lovable as well as well
23:37
as being brilliant the one anecdote
23:41
which I I those of you were interested
23:43
in philosophy will particularly
23:43
appreciate he was walking down the
23:46
street with max Scheler one day the
23:48
1920s actually I was a distinguished
23:50
German philosopher very much opposed as
23:54
Mises was the logical positivism which
23:55
in those days was flourishing in Vienna
23:57
you know it was the home of logical
23:58
positivist and they’re working now
24:02
that’s the street Vienna you always walk
24:04
of course a great place to walk any
24:06
walking down the street when Mises nice
24:07
Eze
24:07
tell me Lou what is there on the climate
24:10
of the end of the but makes create so
24:12
many logical positivists these are
24:14
structures shoulders and typical means
24:16
essien gesture he says well after all
24:18
Max and the another now three million
24:21
people and only twelve watching
24:22
economist so it can’t be the climate the
24:30
and another of course great great thing
24:34
which you’re always side to fray
24:35
hesitancy students have refrain of speak
24:37
up so they figure he knows everything
24:39
and they know nothing say no hesitate to
24:41
say anything you said because whatever
24:42
you say regardless of how idiotic it is
24:45
has already been said before by some
24:47
eminent economists
24:51
[Applause]
24:55
so that was that was my introduction is
24:59
amis se and we had enemies a seminar I
25:02
met people who are still my very close
25:04
friends or my so-called living room then
25:08
begins in this period I said before that
25:09
it was no living or just me my father
25:11
and I got married that was it
25:12
me and my wife I guess is that was a
25:14
living room and then we had then we
25:17
found these people who were high school
25:18
students or just beginning college who
25:22
were musicians and we had these living
25:25
room sessions and we call ourselves the
25:28
circle Basquiat Africa was Frederic
25:30
Bastiat we had about I know it’s I know
25:33
how many people maybe a five hardcore
25:35
people in six or seven fringe people and
25:38
that was it and we and we sit around
25:40
discussing abstract libertarian
25:42
questions and should we now of course
25:43
are very familiar with such as which is
25:45
those days nobody ever talked about me
25:46
because that was that we were the only
25:48
libertarians I knew about at least the
25:50
only ones interested these abstruse
25:51
topics like if if somebody throws a
25:54
gorilla into a plate grass plate glass
25:57
window who’s responsible for the window
26:00
is that thing is the guy who throws the
26:02
girl is that the owner of the gorilla or
26:03
isn’t the gorilla himself these sort of
26:07
these are burning questions constantly
26:11
on our minds those legs of course we
26:15
didn’t worry about strategy
26:23
even even people as a sort of flighty as
26:26
we were to start discussing strategy
26:27
with eight people you know how are you
26:29
gonna win look like I said it too
26:33
bizarre even for us so then and then
26:41
about the same winter of 1949-50 this is
26:45
I guess two or three months later after
26:47
my conversion of Austrian ISM I became
26:51
anarchist then I can’t remember exactly
26:52
what happened the was pure logic that
26:56
did it the I used to argue with two or
27:01
three very close friends of mine who
27:03
were liberals were very intelligent
27:04
we’d have sessions sitting around
27:06
arguing constantly right and we had a
27:08
similar session in my house remember
27:10
very vividly and usual arguments about
27:14
three in the morning they leave because
27:15
many of you know I’m a night person and
27:18
three in the morning sort of it was just
27:20
just about average for breaking up an
27:23
evening and and I thought of myself you
27:27
know something I think something
27:28
important happen tonight what the hell
27:29
was it and it wasn’t just like the usual
27:31
argument and I thought the thing over I
27:36
realized what it was because one of them
27:38
said it was at one point because I was a
27:40
favor of lazy Affairs I was a pure
27:42
Medicus lazy and when I kissed okay and
27:44
they of course were regular liberals and
27:46
they said look why do you favor
27:50
government supply police force in courts
27:52
what’s your justification of that and I
27:55
said something like well if people get
27:56
together and they decide that I can have
27:58
this monopoly court system and motley
28:00
police and they said I think very
28:03
intelligently now they said well if the
28:06
people can get together and say that why
28:08
can’t the people get together and and
28:09
set up a steel plant and a dam and all
28:13
the rest of it right why can’t they set
28:14
up almost as other government industries
28:16
I thought of myself as said by god
28:18
they’re right and I I came to inclusion
28:21
lazy Fair was inconsistent but either he
28:24
had to go over in anarchism and scrapped
28:27
government altogether monopoly
28:28
government course of government
28:29
altogether or else you have to become a
28:31
liberal
28:31
of course it was out of the question for
28:33
me to come a liberal that was it that
28:36
was my conversion
28:38
[Applause]
28:39
[Music]
28:45
then I started reading up on this stuff
28:48
an arc is writings and libertarian
28:51
writing etc etc and broaden my
28:52
perspective but that was the sense I was
28:55
I was tremendous winter for me was a
28:56
winter of – double double barrel
28:58
conversion first to Austrian economics
29:01
and seconds of anarchism the I remember
29:07
loss well let’s see yeah then there’s
29:08
the also a Columbia Graduate School or
29:12
still was located of course I used to
29:13
have arguments for these people all the
29:14
time at one point I just think things
29:18
that thing happened which is which
29:19
stunned my with my liberal associates
29:21
they said look here you want extreme
29:22
right-wingers consider the talk extreme
29:24
right-wing crazy and our kiss that
29:26
whatever and then and we’ll put you we
29:28
gotta meet you up with whitey whitey was
29:30
the was the Communist Party leader on
29:32
the campus
29:33
he was there’s a thuggish type throw
29:37
like sweaters six foot eight or whatever
29:39
I mean and that’s stratosphere who knows
29:41
what the height is a menacing looking
29:45
figure in general we gotta get you gotta
29:47
with whitey so they introduced me on
29:48
they set up a meeting on the street and
29:50
Broadway so they and I figured I can get
29:54
they could get out fast and they
29:57
introduced me formally it’s kind of
29:58
sweet they said here we introduce here
30:00
Moran walk party I was whitey whatever
30:03
his name was it was the outstanding
30:04
Marxist Leninist on campus and here’s
30:07
Marie guava who’s attacking Senator Taft
30:09
for having sold out of the Socialists
30:10
and then they figure that would be it
30:14
and we you know pummel each other that’s
30:16
a no
30:17
I get rid of two extremists and only
30:22
enough what happened was that the whitey
30:23
saw an anarchist that’s great and so we
30:26
shook hands we had a very friendly
30:27
discussion in which whitey trying to
30:28
prove to me that the way to achieve and
30:31
the withering away of the state is my
30:32
maximizing state power and I thought
30:33
that’s a little cookie so and my liberal
30:42
friends were totally confused why these
30:44
people conversing even why they hitting
30:45
each other over the head of a club and
30:47
it was interesting ideological
30:49
experience the the other interesting I
30:53
think another thing political point was
30:54
the this yeah about this time I had not
30:59
first libertarian party not yet existed
31:01
so I was not yet politically pure and
31:03
sense of politically organizationally
31:04
pure and the 1948 campaign
31:08
I supported Thurmond for president
31:10
sermons this states rights candidate
31:12
okay I was little club on colony ever
31:14
see campus called students for Thurmond
31:17
was a very small club as you might
31:18
expect and this was during the height of
31:23
political act that most of the people
31:24
there on campus were Wallace Henry
31:26
Wallace supporters others were Truman
31:28
supporters and make two or three Dewey
31:30
supporters and here I was a sermon
31:32
supporter so as soon as the Thurmond
31:34
member had one meeting in the meeting
31:36
there four or five members and about
31:39
twelve or thirteen hostile observers
31:41
trying to find out what kind of evil
31:43
racism is gonna be promoted here and
31:45
most of the people who got up and spoke
31:47
were sort of southern states rights
31:48
types didn’t have much to say I got up
31:51
here as a New York Jewish like guys
31:53
having a passion plea for against the
31:55
central centralized government for
31:56
decentralization I couldn’t understand
31:58
this at all anyway the students thought
32:00
my club was not flourish that was my one
32:02
experience with it at any rate the we
32:08
has a site of about eight P six or seven
32:10
people or something in this little
32:12
circle Basquiat we got along very well I
32:14
think is a very happy times a small
32:17
number of a pure in spirit and argue
32:21
only as I say about our Kane matters and
32:23
never about Stratton
32:25
strategy the I remember also then about
32:29
this about this time is first time in my
32:31
life ever got read baited big no
32:33
experience for me I mean now those of
32:35
you think I’m a commie now it’s nothing
32:36
to it but the I consider myself an
32:40
extreme light winger okay this is the
32:41
the old right the Republicans are the
32:43
right wingers were semi libertarian in
32:45
those days they’re anti military
32:47
intervention they’re anti conscription
32:48
there were favor the free market and
32:50
it’s like I said myself so extreme
32:52
version of this okay so I wrote I wrote
32:55
a column for obscure little magazine
32:57
called Faith and Freedom which nobody’s
33:01
ever heard of short here and was was
33:05
written was written it was a very good
33:07
actually friggin libertarian magazine
33:08
for today he’s written for right-wing
33:10
Protestant ministers that was the market
33:12
that they’re writing for the people are
33:14
writing it was a sort of a culture clash
33:17
and the so I wrote the Washington column
33:23
I succeeded shorter walk one of my proud
33:24
moments is my shirt off left Washington
33:26
comic became the Washington columnist
33:28
even though I had never been to
33:28
Washington that point and and I wrote
33:34
another pseudonym called ob/ob Herbert
33:37
and for various obscure reasons I’m not
33:39
going to unimportant reasons any write
33:41
the I started I know this was the
33:45
beginning of the Eisenhower
33:45
administration so I had a lot of fun
33:47
attacking most of statist plans and our
33:49
administration attacking the idea we
33:51
should spend every American drop of
33:53
American blood supporting Chiang
33:54
kai-shek and things like that and I was
33:56
having a ball and the editor comes
33:58
flying to the east these before that six
34:00
months before he said I was doing a
34:01
great job great writer and all that he
34:03
comes easy as I say he said I have to
34:05
fire you so I have to fire me it so
34:07
you’re like that’s not the points that
34:08
might our constituents are writing
34:11
letters calling neo communist these are
34:13
the right-wing Protestant ministers so I
34:15
was kind of stunned it’s the first time
34:16
I’ve ever been read baited I’m not
34:17
course used to it which difference it
34:19
was a culture shock sunny right I said
34:22
but since I always spend all the time
34:24
attacking a government I gotta be
34:25
communist it’s coming in favor of your
34:27
wall out government ownership of
34:29
everything but logic was lost on the
34:31
editor he was just interested in his
34:32
constituents fortunately unfortunately
34:35
retribution divine retribution
34:37
a magazine full with about three months
34:39
later the well I guess the see what
34:52
Springs me up to about late middle only
34:53
late 1950s
34:57
let’s see what’s now I guess I should
35:00
swell okay Lee
35:01
well the fit late fifties are they say
35:04
the before Brad was essentially those of
35:07
us who are libertarians again I guess it
35:08
was about five or six or eight or
35:09
whatever consider us I was extreme
35:11
right-wingers during this in the
35:13
spectrum of context then what happened
35:17
was the right wing was taken over and
35:18
change dramatically by the National
35:20
Review 1955 and for various reasons one
35:25
because it was a power of vacuum because
35:27
the old leaders have died off like
35:28
Taftan Colonel McCormack it was easy for
35:32
the master of you to take over and sort
35:33
of change the whole picture into what
35:36
the right wing is now the right wing
35:37
those days was not theocratic it was
35:39
that pro war pro conscription so anyway
35:41
the the the face of the whole right wing
35:43
was changed which point those of us
35:45
would consider ourselves extreme right
35:46
wingers had to start leaving the
35:47
movement leaving the right wing movement
35:49
and it was a painful break as usually
35:52
these things usually are the I was
35:56
writing I wrote quite a few economic
35:58
articles and book reviews for National
36:00
Review the first few years the let’s
36:04
play a poll by the by the new but but
36:06
those days was the new right and spoke
36:10
with them about 1959 there was something
36:11
about I guess about that period the I
36:15
bet my best friend there was Frank Myers
36:17
very interesting character he was the
36:19
book review editor and general
36:21
theoretician for National Review now
36:23
dead
36:24
another very charming chap he was an
36:26
extremely erudite intellectually
36:30
exciting libertarian many ways was great
36:32
on the public school system he’d of the
36:34
guts of the public school system even
36:35
hated private schools
36:38
and as a result Lee raised his kids
36:40
himself and which is a heroic act as
36:42
probably many of you realize the I mean
36:48
he’s pretty good at most things I was
36:49
unfortunately was weak on one particular
36:51
topic like nuclear war he was a little
36:54
favor of it yeah they give me a sort of
36:58
a feel about National Review wasn’t
36:59
those days probably still is but I
37:01
haven’t had any contact with him long
37:02
time the Franken his wife I’ll say you
37:05
were also rate charming person the two
37:07
of them used to argue bitterly about
37:08
what the farm policy move should be okay
37:11
Frank was in favor of mediate a nuclear
37:13
attack on the Soviet Union okay
37:15
LC want to give them 24 hours to resign
37:18
before we attack me that was the that
37:22
was the matrix the spectrum of opinion
37:27
and extreme their right wing on the new
37:30
right so we didn’t we they’re not
37:32
politically see eye to eye obviously for
37:35
from Fri first few years my friend I was
37:38
going on the other thing that struck me
37:40
about the the new right was the monarch
37:43
istic aspect there were many many
37:46
sessions or cocktail parties and the big
37:47
argument would be something like this
37:49
should the Bourbon monarchy be restored
37:51
first all the hapsburgs
37:53
so cuz that’s the sort of thing I can
37:56
relate very well that wasn’t even worse
37:57
than agricultural metaphors the cellar
38:06
that what happened was after the small
38:08
growth in the 40s in other words after
38:09
finding the movement in the middle of
38:12
late 40s and then sort of having some
38:15
intellectual companions whatever and
38:18
they 50s we’re back in square one again
38:20
more or less by 1959 or 60 also
38:23
libertarians in that period beginning
38:24
was swinging on a pro war direction all
38:26
over they were mostly was swinging in
38:28
pro war direction one of my close
38:31
friends who was a original member of the
38:33
circle boss Robert Schuckman who died
38:36
tragic death very early was probably was
38:39
the first chairman of the young
38:40
Americans for freedom to give you an
38:42
example
38:44
a bf spirit those days probably still
38:46
still is the the founding meeting in
38:50
Sharon Connecticut of yeah F okay
38:52
the the small libertarian contingent
38:55
this is beginning the libertarian
38:56
conservative Alliance not not not me but
38:58
the other other people and the they
39:03
suggested the term America Americans for
39:05
freedom the trans who have building
39:07
majority traditionalists so no no he
39:09
can’t use the word freedom because it’s
39:11
a commie word to me it sort of
39:15
symbolizes the right wing from then on
39:17
freedom as a commie weren’t but the
39:20
shock that was able to prevail like this
39:22
with some of the cooler heads like
39:23
Buckley and get the thing started the so
39:32
we had a situation on by the early 60s I
39:34
had to start battling on Iran the
39:35
foreign policy front both you know with
39:38
with libertarians as well as other
39:39
people and and there was when the
39:43
Vietnam War started and the draft of
39:45
course this made the thing much more
39:47
intense a whole problem and and Lenin
39:50
legio myself founder left and right
39:52
which trying it’s three times a year
39:54
publication I hate to say it try and you
39:57
try any new or whatever and we figured
40:01
nobody was reading it maybe we had some
40:04
subscribers unfortunately we’re so ill
40:06
organized and they look we never catch
40:08
anybody’s check so the hey right there
40:15
was all we had a heavy deficit but we
40:20
figured nobody who’s reading it turned
40:21
out later after the magazine died a lot
40:23
of people seem to have an influence by
40:25
it but that was that’s the sort of thing
40:26
what happens in writing sort of writing
40:29
is sort of like putting your putting a
40:30
note on a bottle and putting out on the
40:32
ocean hoping somebody reads it some of
40:33
that so I’d be very surprised if you
40:36
find out a lot of people have read it
40:38
the so with the so with with this
40:43
position of the anti-war an anti draft
40:46
so they have a war question in a
40:48
position which suppose totally from the
40:50
right way
40:51
who then again accused us of being
40:53
comedies for the second and not the last
40:55
time we suddenly then then we suddenly
40:59
then we are really arrived at the famous
41:00
Yap split in other words we get to the
41:02
point in 69 I guess it was all of a
41:07
sudden you latarian types pop up at ya
41:09
and you will hear I’m sure the soul soul
41:11
party are more discussion of this the
41:15
and I wasn’t really close to that but
41:19
leave me the F spot happened in st.
41:20
Louis where I wasn’t I wasn’t a PI I did
41:23
contribute to the superb i running a
41:24
flama tory four-page oracle man
41:28
libertarian forum which i just found out
41:30
in 69 to replace left and right saying
41:35
listen yeah urging a little calling upon
41:37
the split less evil organization it
41:39
family has once again blowing my cool
41:44
that didn’t seem to have a certain
41:45
amount of effect the any rate the yap
41:51
was but of course the big issue of being
41:54
the draft the conservatives are the
41:55
transit of the f convention being
41:58
horrifying appalled and one of our
42:00
people one of the libertarian caucus
42:02
people yeah burned his draft card openly
42:04
and which appoint me
42:08
[Music]
42:11
mr. point they tryna lynch him and
42:15
another another things our people at st.
42:18
Louis were shouting lays a fair lady’s a
42:20
fair as their while they were running a
42:22
draft card on the opposition the trans
42:24
was shouting lazy fairies and she can
42:27
again shows the mentalities people so
42:31
with the mean time in the libertarian
42:34
forum had been founded one because left
42:36
and right was running too many deficits
42:37
and two because we figured that but the
42:41
Nixon administration coming to power and
42:43
it’s has certain parallels right now of
42:44
course many libertarians at the time for
42:48
the next was gonna be the savior he was
42:49
gonna bring Liberty to America I swear
42:55
it’s true
42:57
I had many several friends of mine who
42:59
best time become Nixon advisors for
43:02
claiming this is really a libertarian
43:03
matter fact some of them said look this
43:04
was really an anarchist I get that they
43:10
said mix is one of us you’ll see when he
43:12
might now of course when he cuz he’s a
43:13
politician he’s running for office
43:15
yes pretending you know left wing and
43:17
statist and all that but but you’ll say
43:20
boy when he gets into office you’ll see
43:21
what he’ll be own take off the gloves
43:23
come out of a closet of course we did
43:26
see four people deep regret but this as
43:32
a matter of fact I coined a little quip
43:34
at that point Nixon had was one of the
43:36
pioneers the idea of having special
43:37
interest groups for Nixon like writers
43:39
for Nixon housewives for Nixon etc etc
43:40
so I wrote a thing saying there should
43:42
be Google anarchists for Nixon any rate
43:47
the that was I guess quick
43:49
disillusionment with that but we found a
43:52
libertarian forum largely because my
43:54
publisher and close friend Joe Payton
43:56
believe that we should have a voice poor
43:58
IANA the public whoever reads it among
44:00
libertarian public pointing out Nixon is
44:02
not really a libertarian goddammit and
44:04
that’s really how it got started the
44:07
while about the same time the absolute
44:10
was going on we we started separate
44:12
clubs in New York libertarian supper
44:15
club there is now a libertarian supper
44:16
club which is very successful and
44:17
peaceful our supper club was peaceful of
44:21
a successful they’re not very peaceful
44:22
the this was during the Nixon repression
44:25
period okay so we we’ve we figured out
44:28
the meetings were in my living room
44:29
we’re getting on to large I have a
44:31
pretty small living Lois I think it was
44:32
legendary but it’s small okay so we
44:37
decide why don’t we have a supper call
44:38
when you have a higher a Chinese
44:39
restaurant or something nice something
44:40
nice and cheap and have a meeting just
44:43
announce it and have somebody reading a
44:44
paper or whatever some short thing have
44:46
any discussion so we did that we get
44:48
wait we met on a Chinese restaurant a CD
44:50
of a very good Chinese restaurant and
44:52
Broadway and a hundred Street on Third
44:54
Street something like that and we had we
44:57
thought we get about 30 people right we
44:59
got it we got about 80 this the
45:00
beginning of a sort of big libertarian
45:01
growths many people come from how are
45:04
they well some of them unfortunately
45:06
police agents so he’s one because what
45:10
happened was that the and these me have
45:12
to realize these meetings were extremely
45:14
innocuous right I mean my friend Leonard
45:17
the jail give a paper on history of
45:18
classical liberalism okay
45:20
next morning this is a Saturday night
45:22
next morning we had a contact made one
45:25
student group at that time the Fordham
45:27
University it was our big student
45:28
libertarian group one and only maybe it
45:30
was another one somewhere and most of
45:34
people afford a new the head of the
45:36
Athens New York State yeah at the Times
45:38
they’re friendly and forum campus so
45:40
Saturday night when Taleggio give a
45:41
little talk on the history of classical
45:43
liberalism Sunday morning the the after
45:48
I will call up my friends at Fordham and
45:50
say here’s here’s what happened last
45:51
night when elegio gave a paper the
45:52
following people attended a meal off a
45:54
list of attendees
45:55
he got that from his police spies it was
45:57
he was fairly a New York City Police
45:59
Department so that was a sort of
46:02
atmosphere no they didn’t do anything
46:03
particularly at the point but I guess we
46:06
felt were on the cutting edge of the
46:07
pollution then we we sadly suffered the
46:13
summer clubs with fairly successful
46:14
getting eighty people we did something
46:16
very daring and external retrospect to
46:19
be pretty crazy
46:19
issued a call ok libertarian forum come
46:23
one come all first libertarian
46:25
convention this was Columbus Day 1969
46:29
everybody show off those mammoth thing
46:32
we expected we get about 200 people we
46:34
got about 400 or something like that we
46:38
who are these people never saw them
46:40
before
46:41
usually them so later either
46:44
it’s very strange the whole thing very
46:46
strengthless phantasmagoric because
46:48
first of all you hell this thing Anna
46:50
Torre is coming hangout coming hotel on
46:52
the x squared reason why we what there’s
46:54
the cheapest hotel we could find this is
46:55
not we’re not the affluent movement we
46:57
now are right this is the old is the old
47:01
days so there’s a place called the hotel
47:03
diplomat which has very cheap meeting
47:07
rooms etcetera so we have these solid
47:10
papers and stuff like that then we found
47:13
things peculiar things were happening
47:14
like all of a sudden somebody would pop
47:15
we’d stand outside somebody pop up with
47:17
a flash bulb and take our picture
47:19
or somebody would swagger up and say the
47:22
sort of obvious shoulder hosts holster
47:25
bows with a crew-cut
47:26
you one of those anarchists in there and
47:29
we say you’re a narc us who’s that what
47:31
never heard of me just standing here
47:32
going restaurant so anyway that was the
47:35
that was the situation where’s it so far
47:39
almost the police bust and they didn’t
47:40
quite get to it but I was sort of close
47:42
to it also people they were kind of we
47:45
never saw these people it was very
47:46
strange and motley group yeah we used to
47:50
date people in living room but threat 20
47:52
people here we find a tremendous
47:54
spectrum of libertarian about variety
47:57
ranging for people walking around with
47:58
capes with dollar signs on them too
48:05
– – people with black armbands about a
48:09
weird-looking types of black on message
48:11
custody shouting kill loot so without a
48:20
closed meeting of the minds in this
48:22
convention I probably turned off more
48:24
people set back the movement quite a few
48:27
years I think hey right that was the
48:30
that was the way we had to learn through
48:32
experience and obviously it was such a
48:35
learning process so we now we’ve now
48:38
come yes to the early days and he said
48:43
this is 69 a year or two later I guess I
48:45
should talk about the first publicity of
48:46
the movement what happened is that the
48:49
19 the fall of 1970
48:52
okay the campus revolt was taking place
48:54
in 69 and 70 basically all the burnings
48:56
of a care buildings whatever by the full
48:58
of 70 the whole thing had died out very
49:00
very fast so New York Times was looking
49:03
around for some something is right about
49:05
and then went to the campus they
49:07
couldn’t find any political activity
49:08
went to Columbia University though you
49:10
were to before the heartland of sit-ins
49:12
and burnings in the lap couldn’t find
49:15
any any any collect activity it’ll walk
49:16
someone peculiar group called a freedom
49:18
conspiracy boys people heard of them
49:20
before
49:22
fantasy is the only people active
49:24
political group on campus is 1970 you’re
49:27
a favor of Jim Buckley for Senate a
49:28
deviation which force these and I’ve
49:30
been corrected and there we are group
49:35
because they’re one hand they’re talking
49:36
all this stuff about lays a fair and
49:37
free market it was a very counterculture
49:39
types and the things the black flags and
49:42
so for and so on will be here all the
49:43
rest of it so New York Times fathers are
49:45
very interesting phenomenon they wrote a
49:47
little article about it and then of two
49:50
or three months later a new york times
49:51
magazine section was extremely
49:52
influential them and the media and
49:54
general general opinion groups wrote a
49:58
fun page article this is the early 1971
50:01
with a picture of these guys that the
50:03
two leaders Stanley R and Lou Rossetto
50:06
with a black flag and whatever
50:08
anarchy written on the back and
50:10
somewhere and so on a lonely Arcana
50:12
strange new group called libertarians
50:14
and their their favor of all John walk
50:16
and and so forth so on this is the first
50:20
time I think the modern libertarian
50:21
movement got any kind of media publicity
50:23
and it kicked things off because then
50:25
there was Abed pieces about it and what
50:28
happened then was that they asked me to
50:30
write something about it and I got an
50:32
argument Buckley as usual and from that
50:36
they asked me to write for new liberty
50:37
so hopefully I’m against the snowball
50:38
and of course about that year so later
50:42
that year in libertarian party was
50:43
founded so I think since you’re of
50:47
course a familiar history of the party
50:49
you’ll hear much more about it from the
50:50
founding members who are really here in
50:52
person in Colorado and my reminiscence
50:55
is a nostalgia at this point as we’ve
50:58
now brought up to love modern current
50:59
period brought you from the antediluvian
51:01
period of my births all the way up all
51:05
the way up to modern times so thank you
51:08
very much
51:09
[Applause]
51:09
[Music]
51:14
[Applause]
51:14
[Music]
51:21
[Applause]
51:31
somebody want to talk to Murray somebody
51:34
want to show them your bowtie there are
51:38
some floor mics in case we have problems
51:40
hearing you or in case I can’t recognize
51:42
you a question here that’s that’s
51:59
something I spent at least two days on
52:00
so sorry
52:03
we yeah we I’ve met on through actually
52:07
some mutual friends in the early fifties
52:09
and those days she was quite different
52:12
she was talking other tune on Randy and
52:14
so there wasn’t Randy and movement at
52:15
time so she was yeah we had mutual
52:19
friends and so forth and and then when I
52:21
then follow up on this then when I Atlas
52:23
Shrugged came out our little group we
52:26
were over at me won’t phousi asking
52:27
about who wrote her a fan letter and we
52:29
got reintroduced this is late 58 58 yeah
52:32
so the circle Basquiat meets the Rania
52:35
movement so like Godzilla Meets The
52:37
Wolfman was a very peculiar experience
52:43
is very traumatic six months I spent a
52:45
movement randy trani movement and i some
52:50
of us up see the particular thing about
52:53
first of all we didn’t know about cults
52:54
in those days Oh Harry Krishna or stuff
52:57
and and so but the the thing is it was a
53:01
the total of disjunction between the
53:04
external and the internal
53:05
ENSO Terry esoteric creed in other words
53:07
and religious cults as an exoteric feet
53:10
which is the Creed for the public the
53:12
printed writings which draws people in
53:15
the movement as the esoteric stuff stuff
53:16
you get when you’re 33rd degree whatever
53:18
right here’s what we really believe
53:20
fellas okay and you work your way up to
53:23
that well it’s very similar thing in
53:24
rannian movement other words the
53:25
exoteric stuff was great I mean super
53:28
stuff natural rights and liberty and
53:31
reason and all that which is why most of
53:33
us got into it and then the esoteric we
53:35
was quite different almost contradictory
53:37
the tree it also has fantastic problems
53:40
obviously inner contradictions tensions
53:42
esoteric we mean essentially iron
53:44
randoms right and everything every
53:45
conceivable topic so did she change her
53:48
mind a lot on my concrete issues you
53:53
know is Henry wise his Mike Wallace a
53:56
good guy or a bad guy in other words the
53:58
line with Hannah Dan Mike lost great
53:59
soon of Objectivism six weeks later Mike
54:02
was in a leper okay so if you weren’t if
54:04
you weren’t clued in you could get
54:06
kicked out very easily so there’s that
54:07
sort of atmosphere and it’s the
54:09
atmosphere which unfortunately we lost
54:11
of course a lot of good people because
54:12
you stay in and get robot eyes or you
54:15
leave so that’s the essence of
54:17
experience I mean that’s as I could go
54:20
offer you tell anecdotes for
54:21
solar cows come home
54:23
get out another topic I’m gonna be real
54:28
unfair here because I actually don’t
54:30
have a question I have a quick
54:31
announcement that’s something that isn’t
54:32
in any of the information but there will
54:35
be a short state chairs caucus at the
54:37
back of the ballroom here if Murray ever
54:40
decides to finish which I hope he
54:41
doesn’t know why I don’t like pockets
54:44
[Applause]
54:49
even you overlook me Oh is there another
54:53
question there a present
55:04
[Applause]
55:06
an homage to Murray from the Brazilian
55:09
libertarians and here’s their magazine
55:12
for the picture of Murray and obviously
55:14
some of his writings are an article
55:16
about him in the language that I don’t
55:17
know
55:18
[Applause]
55:28
[Applause]
55:30
[Music]
55:32
[Applause]
55:36
who next there the question is what is
55:54
the Orthodox rothbard position on Karen
55:56
two patents and copyright the Orthodox
55:59
position is this oddly enough of same
56:00
positions Henry George the only one I
56:03
can find I have the same viewpoint only
56:06
copyrights good patents bad the reason
56:09
for that is not as you might think is
56:10
that I’m a writer and therefore pro
56:11
copyrights the easy economic determinist
56:18
argument it’s really it’s because a copy
56:24
or a copy arises the common law device
56:25
which says if you invent something or
56:28
write something doesn’t really make any
56:29
different you can copyright an
56:30
industrial design for example right now
56:33
what it says is that if you you put you
56:38
stamp on it whatever it is whether it’s
56:39
an invention or a book or whatever you
56:42
stamp on a copyright which means that
56:43
you’re selling it he’s selling the full
56:45
ownership of it except you’re keeping
56:47
reserving something you can chop off
56:49
property rights in different parts of
56:50
course you’re keeping yourself exclusive
56:53
right to sell it to resell it or
56:55
anything integral to it so that’s the
56:57
copyright which is perfectly legitimate
57:00
the problem with a patent is the
57:02
government steps in and says you have
57:04
the exclusive right to this invention
57:05
and nobody else can use it
57:07
even if he’s invented something 3,000
57:09
miles away of completely completely
57:10
independently of it and there was a
57:12
patent as a monopoly privilege
57:15
repressing people’s right to do whatever
57:17
they want to their own property so and
57:20
there were of course many in the history
57:22
of inventions there are lots of
57:24
independent inventions so things are in
57:26
the air like five or six people have
57:28
better the telephone about the same time
57:29
and they’ll race out race them the
57:32
patent law
57:33
which is was responsible for the you
57:35
know AT&T; is Bo got the exclusive
57:37
monopoly on every any telephone so this
57:41
is really a legitimate so the the for
57:43
that reason in other words what
57:45
copyright you have to prove a guy had
57:46
access if somebody has a similar
57:48
telephone let’s say you copyright a
57:50
telephone somebody else comes up with
57:51
telephone five hundred miles away you
57:53
have to prove a guy had access to your
57:54
phone with a patent you have to do that
57:56
just you have the thing and that’s it so
57:59
that’s see what’s a box lying on that
58:01
Murray when you were talking about the
58:05
early New York years you didn’t mention
58:07
the attack on Fort Dix
58:09
and I thought you might like to tell
58:12
that story yeah that was at the that was
58:15
at the this 1969 convention or whatever
58:19
you call it the we had but this thing
58:23
was very supposed to be a scholarly had
58:25
planned this for a long time it’s gonna
58:27
be a first libertarian scholars
58:28
conference basically now have a
58:30
libertarian scholars come for every year
58:31
but that was the first plan one we had
58:34
papers and things panels all the rest of
58:36
it and what happened was that the
58:40
Saturday night we started I guess Friday
58:42
night and Saturday night we had a
58:46
contingent which said actually was Carl
58:49
Hasso was here here this week so that
58:53
heck with us yeah intellectual stuff
58:55
let’s go and that’s attack for dicks
58:59
the there was a movement order to invade
59:03
Fort Dix and I was you know it’s not
59:06
that was against the theory of it yeah I
59:09
felt it wasn’t famous sure
59:12
and also we had a scholars thing planned
59:15
saying so and it wasn’t on the agenda
59:18
but anyways we had a big split we had a
59:22
big split in the and the movement that
59:24
night and which I guess about half the
59:26
people march on Fort Dix and the other
59:27
half
59:28
stay with the scholars conference and
59:29
what happened wasn’t sunday the march of
59:32
Fort Dix occurred the lady who was the
59:36
head of the Michigan contingent who and
59:38
the whole history libertarian movement
59:39
she’s probably the wackiest person I’ve
59:40
ever met that’s saying a hell of a lot
59:42
and she she her whole contingent came
59:50
with a black armbands and so forth and
59:52
the so the key she came stomping back
59:54
from Fort Dix marching down the whole
59:58
seizing the microphone from our genteel
60:00
discussion it’s not like cursing us out
60:05
no uncertain terms you sob this have to
60:08
settle how dare you sit here while we’re
60:10
being gassed at Fort Dix of course they
60:12
were gas obviously Finley one might have
60:14
expected so that I guess that’s that’s
60:20
about it yeah
60:24
I’d like to I’d like to hear the origin
60:26
of the Roth party and penchant for bow
60:28
ties okay it’s racist it’s very simple
60:32
I’ve decided to admit that in my early
60:34
days I was wearing regular funky ties
60:37
and and when I got married my wife
60:42
decided on bow ties that was it that was
60:44
the end of the
60:46
[Applause]
60:52
over there this Murray how do you feel
60:55
that the founding of the libertarian
60:57
International is going to affect the
60:59
future of international libertarianism I
61:02
don’t know there is a libertarian
61:04
international being founded it’s meeting
61:06
like this first time next summer and our
61:09
interlaken in switzerland and why that
61:13
should be great it’s hard to know I
61:15
don’t really am not really touch of the
61:16
European movements but there are there I
61:18
know there I just met a few more Weejun
61:20
libertarians never heard of before very
61:23
good people and has whole Icelandic
61:25
libertarian movement
61:26
apparently there’s there’s a there’s a
61:30
Austrian amis se an austrian professor
61:32
of economics have been totally aiesec
61:34
imagine how you isolate a nice one right
61:35
nice later New York is one thing the
61:37
isolate important Iceland as well
61:39
something else and I’ve been carrying on
61:41
the torch for 25 years or so and is now
61:44
an Icelandic movement unfortunately most
61:46
of us can’t read Icelandic or cut off
61:48
from this so this the libertarian
61:50
international group will be opportunity
61:51
to meet these people for one thing and
61:52
find interchange views and so forth it
61:54
should be great I don’t know how many
61:56
people show up at the first meeting but
61:58
that’s you know once you have to try and
62:01
find out at first the beginning of a
62:04
little bit turn yes
62:27
would you like to say something about
62:29
this present yeah this is this is a
62:35
present from the people in Park County
62:40
this is Phil Prosser people of the park
62:47
County Libertarian Party have published
62:49
a free enterprise calendar honoring
62:52
those people who have made the
62:54
industrial and political revolution in
62:56
the last 300 years rather than
62:59
politicians and generals and we’d like
63:02
to present this copy to Murray Rothbard
63:04
for his pioneering efforts on behalf of
63:06
libertarianism
63:07
[Applause]
63:16
Oh Marie’s giving all these new toys who
63:21
else has a question a comment more
63:25
presents over there I was just wondering
63:31
how you would feel about when we finally
63:33
get elected and get to dis man this
63:35
government as much as we’d like to would
63:38
you favor keeping some of NASA as a
63:41
defense measure strictly not to put
63:43
nuclear weapons in orbit but as
63:45
surveillance satellites and an early
63:47
warning system or would you rather see
63:49
NASA totally disbanded and allow free
63:52
enterprise to just take over space and
63:55
free enterprise taking over his face all
63:57
away that seems like it’s the best Mike
64:09
over there okay I hope I’m not missing
64:12
somebody over there but the lights are
64:13
kind of obscuring my vision so you might
64:15
have to speak up is there somebody
64:16
behind that Mike this Mike okay still
64:24
not related the story of the free market
64:26
lighthouse at the Columbia conference in
64:29
1971 and I think that is the story that
64:31
bears repeating ah yes let me see the
64:37
that was the you know that was the
64:39
Columbia University one right conference
64:42
yeah there was a whole thing I’ve had a
64:44
series of jumps with Bob Buckley over
64:46
the years usually what happens if he
64:49
thinks we’re getting stronger at or
64:50
getting any publicity than he attacks me
64:52
and ten years later same sort of thing
64:54
happened he attacks me again so it’s a
64:56
degree of effectiveness is you know
64:58
depend on the degree of attack any rate
65:00
one time he said that wow these
65:03
libertarians they can sit around that
65:06
busy little seminars worry about D
65:09
nationalizing white houses whereas we
65:11
you know we conservators are out there
65:13
defending America from the Communist
65:14
hordes so the I answer him that I was
65:19
more twister than foreign policy and I
65:21
wasn’t D nationalizing lighthouses
65:22
actually strange as it might seem and of
65:26
course I was
65:27
opposing his view of it as my friend
65:29
wall MOA wrote he refuses to thank mr.
65:31
Buckley for saving his life
65:34
so anyway athlete Columbia diversity
65:37
conference a very sweet gesture I was
65:39
presented with a lighthouse as a symbol
65:42
of so called impractical purist
65:45
libertarianism that was I think that’s
65:47
as I as I remember it fill me in boron
65:50
so lighthouse to service the symbol
65:56
Marie you weren’t initially a supporter
65:59
of the LP what got you to join what
66:01
turned you positive on it well I wasn’t
66:02
I wasn’t I was I was against it look
66:04
what happened what Avery frankly what
66:05
happened you have to remember it was
66:07
those nobody ever heard of libertarian
66:09
party right as far as I know there was
66:11
still all anybody libertarians in the
66:12
country and I suddenly got a call one
66:16
night from somebody from Colorado saying
66:21
they like it will feel like to offer you
66:23
the nomination for president United
66:25
States
66:31
so I figure the no no limit Aryan nut
66:33
and hung up so the sorry I just didn’t
66:44
take it the idea seriously at all I saw
66:46
them so few people I can’t talk about
66:47
running for president and I was wrong
66:49
and what happens obviously the idea
66:51
caught on I was extreme a tremendous
66:54
tactical strategic success and so about
66:57
a year later I joined the point I joined
66:59
the party after my first attendance of
67:03
the FLP convention the origami
67:04
convention I was so impressed with the
67:06
people there that’s it
67:07
so I’ve been here ever since he
67:16
obviously believes in it now since he’s
67:18
accepted the title of mr. libertarianism
67:21
Jack were you there yes Murray you could
67:25
probably clear up an area of doctrine
67:27
that’s been bothering me yeah I was told
67:31
at one time and I don’t know if this is
67:32
apocryphal or not that you were in favor
67:34
of the US and Russia negotiating to get
67:39
rid of nuclear arms yeah sure and then I
67:41
thought well that’s nice the two
67:43
governments get rid of nuclear arms but
67:45
maybe private people will still continue
67:47
to own them because as libertarians I
67:50
don’t think we take them away yeah and
67:52
then I was thinking of Leonid Brezhnev
67:54
with his nuclear arms and I wasn’t
67:57
feeling very safe and I thought of Exxon
67:59
with theirs and I wasn’t feeling very
68:01
safe and I wondered what the position
68:03
really is on this there’s no there’s no
68:05
canonical position on that yet the it’s
68:11
a tricky area and within the spectrum of
68:13
libertarian movement far as I know is
68:15
every every view on it some friends of
68:18
mine believe that nuclear weapon private
68:21
of nuclear weapons should be illegal
68:23
because their per se aggressive in other
68:25
words very holding of them means you’re
68:27
threatening somebody others others some
68:30
of the science science people believe
68:34
every man should have his own every man
68:35
woman should have his own laser
68:37
missile nuclear missile I’m sort of
68:40
middle-of-the-road around as I am an
68:41
almost everything else me I kind of my
68:47
view of that should be legal but I would
68:48
I would sort of be very wary about
68:51
anybody who had one it’s organize a
68:56
boycott
68:56
you know don’t trade with the guys Billy
68:59
a nuclear mess on something like that I
69:00
I don’t think as I say that really needs
69:02
a lot of discussion well he does are you
69:05
in favor of the two governments
69:06
negotiating to for them as governments
69:10
to take away their nuclear weapons or
69:11
whether or not other be sure oh sure
69:13
absolutely
69:31
yeah the question is that the Reagan
69:34
administration seems to be paranoid
69:35
about the Russian threat against them
69:37
made it for admitting the United States
69:38
and when I come in on the Russians
69:40
economic ability to wage war I don’t
69:44
really think they believe the Russians
69:45
will obey the United States I don’t
69:46
think even they believe that I think
69:49
what they want to do is to keep American
69:50
hegemony over there all the rest of the
69:52
world so that but they were worried
69:54
about a possible Russian invasion of
69:55
Western Europe or Persian Gulf or
69:58
Afghanistan or whatever it’s too bizarre
70:01
I think they actually invade the United
70:02
States the their ability is pretty was
70:06
pretty miserable in getting worse a
70:08
little time they can’t even they can’t
70:09
even handle Poland femen’s psyche I mean
70:11
they their Pope the Communist Empire is
70:13
cracking up so on the great it’s one of
70:15
the great under in a sense under sold
70:18
stories of 20th century the fact they
70:20
had a Russian Empire Communist Empire
70:22
which was monolithic the days of Stalin
70:25
or the Kremlin gave the orders everybody
70:28
jumped from from New York to you know to
70:30
China and we now have a situation where
70:33
most of the communist parties are slow
70:35
to offer China and Russia are almost at
70:37
war where Russia is more much more
70:39
paranoid about China and they are about
70:41
in the United States they’re scared
70:43
stiff of China and and they can’t even
70:46
keep polling upon was extremely
70:48
important to them because problem is the
70:49
Gateway of the Eastern Europe and it’s
70:50
between them and East Germany and so the
70:53
fact that they didn’t feel they had the
70:55
guts to invade Poland I think shows
70:57
they’re really they’re really in bad
70:57
shape
70:58
and the talk and the peculiar thing they
71:01
are running part of this whole thing
71:02
that in the last 40 years Russia is now
71:04
that’s weakest position economically
71:06
militarily geographically whatever and
71:09
yet well now we’ve revived the whole
71:10
Cold War nonsense about an imminent
71:11
Russian threat and the bomb shelters and
71:13
missiles are coming with them
71:20
somebody hiding behind the lights over
71:22
there Marie I’d like to ask you what you
71:25
think is the best book for a
71:29
comprehensive introduction to Austrian
71:32
economics this is about sort of level
71:37
introductory level something remember
71:40
level something appropriate to college
71:43
study that’s the trouble is there’s no
71:44
really one book you can say this is a
71:46
textbook introduction in western
71:48
economics there’s a some good elementary
71:50
stuff like full day’s essentials of
71:52
economics but it’s really much lower
71:54
level and there’s some very good books
71:57
your monographs on different topics yeah
72:02
that’s not really a textbook type though
72:04
I think so type book I would recommend
72:06
man economy and state in a pinch it’s
72:10
difficult it’s a maybe a Driscoll’s book
72:12
on Hayek might be good introduction it’s
72:14
it’s the nothing really unfortunate
72:16
nothing is really hit those see the
72:17
trouble is no there’s no incentive to
72:20
write a college textbook and also
72:21
economics is nobody would adopt it very
72:23
few colleges would adopt it and so very
72:25
few publishers would publish something
72:27
but you only get three adoptions and
72:28
very few writers would bother doing it
72:30
so that’s you have to break through that
72:32
vicious circle and which I think
72:34
happened in Austrian economics is
72:35
growing all the time eventually get a
72:38
point with somebody will sit there like
72:39
a textbook and it will be it but I could
72:41
recommend things in your specific areas
72:45
Murray did you have any involvement with
72:48
the anti war and peace movement of the
72:50
60s
72:50
do you or any of people and your friends
72:53
have any involvement yeah well I was
72:54
yeah I was involved in some extent I was
72:56
more in it I was the let’s see there was
73:01
the questions wasn’t involved anti-war
73:03
movement of 60s that wasn’t free
73:05
University of New York which is open up
73:07
about that period first couple of years
73:09
of which was quite good and very good
73:10
lecturers top experts all anti-war many
73:16
of them Marx us now and that was pretty
73:19
enjoyable I know some of the speaker’s
73:22
there so forth the as far as activism
73:26
goes not too much I did write stuff I
73:27
did by inflammatory literature
73:30
cause the my biggest success at that
73:32
point there were two student groups I
73:34
think some student libertarian groups in
73:36
the country one was at Fordham which I
73:37
mentioned already the Elliot was a
73:39
University of Kansas University Kansas
73:41
had a yeah chapter yeah which was
73:43
libertarian after reading libertarian
73:45
formally all shifted and joined students
73:47
for Democratic Society the whole chapter
73:49
kind of shockeroo for them so that that
73:53
happened I wasn’t really more involved I
73:56
knew I got to know a lot of the left
73:58
revisionist historians like Ron radars
74:00
and James Weinstein but other people are
74:03
much more involved Larry Leggio is much
74:04
more active at that point in the actual
74:07
organizational stuff and I was Tony I’ve
74:15
just been asked if before I give my
74:17
question if you’d make a request of the
74:19
people in the back of the room to keep
74:22
it down we’re having a hard time listen
74:27
if they could have heard you that would
74:29
have been enough with the people in the
74:31
back of the room try to keep their
74:33
voices low or move into other areas that
74:35
aren’t going to interfere with the
74:36
people here hearing Marie did you hear
74:39
me thanks every wing is telling me I’m a
74:47
pushy bride
74:49
okay Tony it’s all quiet for you Marie I
74:53
just wondered if you thought that the
74:55
gold Commission was going to recommend a
74:57
return to the gold standard and if so
74:59
would you tell me what you think the
75:01
price of gold will be
75:06
no they’re not gonna recommend a
75:08
commission a gold standard the gold
75:11
commission was mandated by the Congress
75:13
in the last days of a Carter
75:14
Administration when some writer to some
75:16
bill appropriation bill the president
75:20
was therefore mandated legally to point
75:21
a commission to investigate return of
75:23
the gold standard Reagan finally did it
75:25
after about six months of tremendous
75:27
pressure
75:28
after all it’s Lee you have to do it
75:29
right it’s the illegal not to so you
75:31
finally appointed want to buy think
75:32
about June there eighteen seventeen or
75:35
eighteen members of the Commission of
75:36
which 14 and 15 are dedicated or maybe
75:38
slightly lesser dedicated of fanatical
75:40
anti gold people most of them are
75:43
monetarists most of them are either from
75:45
the Treasury Department of the Federal
75:46
Reserve Board there are however a couple
75:49
of very good gold Pogo people on Ron
75:51
Paul particularly who’s on a gold
75:54
Commission and represented a Republican
75:56
of Texas and Lou Lehrman of lamin
75:59
Institute so what they’re planning to do
76:01
I think is write a Minority Report
76:02
majority report will be the usual FEMA
76:05
night Maloney okay the Minority Report
76:08
should be I hope scholarly bang-up you
76:12
know his historical theoretical and
76:14
political justification for the gold
76:16
standard which I hope we get a lot of
76:18
publicity and influence so that’s you
76:21
know it’s basically what’s gonna happen
76:22
the gold Commission for example mandated
76:25
the original gold Commission plan was
76:27
the report will be in by October well
76:30
though they only got set up in July they
76:31
don’t have only three meetings so they
76:34
got I think we got it extended to
76:36
January but still but that’s basically
76:38
it would be just about time enough to
76:39
write a Minority Report what the price
76:42
of gold would be if we really had a good
76:44
set up if we really had a good gold
76:45
Commission I’m not sure yeah they have
76:48
to be studied be something like fifteen
76:49
hundred to two thousand dollars an ounce
76:50
something like that yet that would that
76:53
means that makes that would need a lot
76:55
of work but around that what are your
77:00
views on abortion and children’s rights
77:04
we just we just passed a very good
77:06
platform to platform planks on the topic
77:09
which I agree with 100% I sum up
77:13
abortion I’m wondering 1000% in favor of
77:17
everybody’s right to own his or her own
77:18
body which implies the right of
77:21
terminating pregnancy so I’m very much
77:24
in favor of the right to have an
77:25
abortion I’m obviously not pro-abortion
77:27
assess I think everybody should have an
77:29
abortion okay I don’t think anybody
77:31
there’s anybody that camp I’m pro-choice
77:34
prone or shiver one’s body on our
77:39
children’s rights I’m in favor of
77:40
basically the children have right not to
77:44
be molested attack mutilated etc and
77:46
have the right to get get to get out I
77:48
think that’s the key or I can run it to
77:50
run away or a contract out with some
77:52
other foster parent that I think would
77:54
solve the problem but I recommend the
77:57
two planks the two platform planks over
78:04
on this night yeah Marie you mentioned
78:08
in passing that it appeared to you the
78:10
Soviet hegemony was breaking up but you
78:15
know some might hold that makes them all
78:17
the more dangerous and that they’re
78:18
going to have to resort to more drastic
78:19
measures to defend the Soviet regime so
78:24
I’d like to know how you stand on that
78:26
in the light of an anarchic anarchist
78:30
and on who are you know how armed forces
78:33
ought to be organized and also how you
78:35
stand on the question of unilateral
78:36
disarmament well yeah I don’t I don’t
78:39
understand that argument
78:42
I understand the argument the week you
78:43
you are the moral auto-attack I just I
78:45
think I think I just bunkers that the
78:49
variant of that by the way which is now
78:50
fortunately dropped out of discussion
78:52
was the so-called first II bear theory
78:54
which is very popular around the spring
78:57
of this year winter in spring which is
78:58
now fortunately died out especially bear
79:00
theory was that Russia is short of oil
79:01
and therefore since they have got much
79:03
oil they have tagged up they have to
79:05
invade the Persian Gulf to get it and
79:07
many things wrong with us theory that
79:09
maybe one day they could buy the oil
79:11
invade it even pay the Persian Gulf and
79:14
secondly if then it turns out the CIA
79:15
just recently come out a report saying
79:17
shucks I guess they do they don’t
79:18
they’re not sure well they got plenty of
79:21
oil in Russia so the thirsty beer theory
79:22
is now shot
79:23
I just died to say I just don’t
79:25
understand that argument I think it’s
79:26
bunkers I don’t know if any any any
79:28
state of the history of the world which
79:30
acted in that kind of a basis on what
79:34
was the other parts of your question
79:37
yeah something before that Russia and
79:41
something yeah well no that I think I’ve
79:45
answered anyone disarmament the we’ve
79:50
passed the Poe you know I know this arm
79:52
of plank today the but you know I think
79:57
it’s very intelligent plank what it says
79:58
is we’re a favor not pending that not
80:03
being able to get out we favor the
80:04
following thing joint mutual disarmament
80:06
no nuclear strike first ugliest right
80:09
pledge etcetera etc so it’s it’s a
80:11
little bit like the taxation plank and
80:12
that sort of structure the reason why I
80:15
haven’t been advocating you know I know
80:16
Solomon fiercely for many years as I’m
80:18
convinced that we could get joint
80:19
disarmament very easily in other words
80:21
there’s not much point of having an
80:22
allowance or if you’re gonna easily get
80:24
mutual joint disarmament it’s kind of so
80:27
that’s that’s the only reason I’ve not
80:28
advocated this you know throw away for a
80:32
long time but I think basic the basic
80:35
problem is the bottom line has the
80:37
nuclear weapons of the lead big threat
80:40
to the human of the survival human race
80:42
may just simple a little lat
80:44
that’s manslaughter and manslaughter is
80:47
the big thing which was supposed to be
80:48
against so I think that’s the me that’s
80:50
the bottom line in the question mark did
80:55
you have a question yes your
80:57
reminiscences called to mind George
80:59
Nash’s excellent book the conservative
81:02
intellectual tradition in the US since
81:03
1945 right where he discusses the
81:06
tripartite composition of the
81:08
conservative movement as consisting of
81:10
the libertarian anti-communist and
81:11
traditional elements do you foresee a
81:14
combination of circumstances arising in
81:16
the next 10 to 25 years that would
81:17
result in the re-emergence of that
81:19
libertarian
81:19
element and the right wing returning to
81:22
its libertarian heritage Wow I’d love to
81:26
see it but I don’t see it I don’t think
81:28
it’s gonna happen the right wing has
81:29
gotten gotten worse on on many most
81:31
questions on non-economic questions
81:34
I was probably gotten worse since then
81:36
nuclear nuclear policy just as bad I
81:39
mean they yeah look me a war policy just
81:40
as bad plus they’ve got well as
81:43
terrorism nonsense which they’re you
81:45
know every everybody under ever you bet
81:47
as a KGB agent plus the mole majority
81:51
which has shifted a lot of right-wing
81:52
opinion I’m seeing the old days in
81:53
nineteen fifties and sixties nobody
81:54
talked about you know reestablishing
81:57
theocracy or outlawing abortion or
81:58
anything like that or or bringing you
82:01
know the only the only thing they were
82:02
worried about was pray or the public
82:03
schools where she’s pretty innocuous now
82:05
you know looking back on it so the whole
82:07
moral majority thing I think a shift of
82:09
the position which were compulsory
82:11
morality viewpoint than it was in those
82:13
days so it looks like it’s swinging in
82:16
the other direction except on except on
82:17
economics where it’s not that great
82:19
anyway see the problem with the right
82:21
wing in economics says they’re not
82:22
really that interested in it when I was
82:24
going to right-wing rallies back in the
82:26
50s I was distressed to find that nobody
82:29
would ever cheer nobody no standing
82:31
ovation for the free market right from
82:34
Liberty or something the only standing
82:35
ovation was young old power to Chiang
82:38
kai-shek
82:39
so that was there’s no real essentially
82:43
conservatives except for a few
82:45
economists who are interested in
82:46
economics obviously essentially they
82:48
give lip service the free market there
82:50
but their hearts are really elsewhere
82:51
hearts aren’t compulsory compulsory
82:53
theocracy and looking them in the
82:55
Russians so I mean I’m not ruling it out
82:58
obviously it’s not enough it’s not
83:00
logically impossible that could happen
83:01
how do you account for the the old
83:04
rights and antipathy toward an
83:06
interventionist foreign policy and and
83:09
why was there a lack of a theoretical
83:11
connection between the free market and
83:14
non interventionist foreign policy yeah
83:18
the there was there has been the 19th
83:20
century liberal classical liberals
83:21
worth’s totally all our anti dimension
83:23
us they were not anarchist by the way
83:26
you didn’t have to
83:27
they didn’t have to be an anarchist no
83:28
no to be against foreign intervention
83:30
Richard Cobden right all these people
83:33
will classical liberals a very anti
83:35
foreign intervention they were cool so
83:36
cool little Englanders rate quote
83:38
isolationist unquote and very anti
83:40
militarists Thomas Jefferson for example
83:43
is whether you favor disbanding the
83:44
eternal army and they be not just
83:45
against the draft against the whole Army
83:47
and Navy
83:48
so unfortunately what happened was we
83:53
lost as the classical liberal tradition
83:55
dying out we lost these moorings it was
83:58
that you remembrance of limits or the
84:00
whole tradition then the right wing the
84:04
moderate right wing was essentially
84:05
created by the New Deal 1930s and 40s a
84:08
reaction against the excesses against
84:10
the leap into statism of the New Deal so
84:12
the the right wing is essentially a
84:13
reactionary movement sense of being
84:15
reacting against this new leap so it was
84:18
a coalition of everybody was against the
84:20
New Deal which is a very broad coalition
84:21
and most these people weren’t
84:23
philosophically oriented at all they
84:25
weren’t really much even free market
84:26
particularly so but they’re against the
84:29
further leap in the state ISM and they
84:31
were against them World War two so you
84:33
wind up after World War two of the right
84:36
wing which is which was semi libertarian
84:39
or isolation is anti-war and I graph
84:40
free-market but he didn’t have much of a
84:42
philosophical than having theorists much
84:45
they don’t have any readings it was
84:47
really sort of a it was a mass movement
84:49
without a theory it used to be called
84:52
with them right it was a civic
84:53
expression those days was a that was it
84:55
wasn’t the real most no intellectual
84:57
content so what happened was in the
84:59
middle 1950s senator Taft died her
85:02
McCormack was the editor of Chicago
85:04
Tribune which those days was all-out
85:05
anti-war publication at least these
85:09
people died out and just retired they
85:12
let it left a power vacuum intellectual
85:14
vacuum which National Review then could
85:15
fill very welcome
85:16
national views are brilliantly out of
85:18
magazine you know so it was just it cut
85:20
through the right way like a knife
85:21
through butter the third part of my
85:23
question was earlier this year when you
85:26
visited us at the University of Colorado
85:27
you said that you’re coming out with a
85:29
new book
85:30
on rise of statism in the 19th century
85:35
could you tell us the status of that
85:37
status as I’m in the middle of it in
85:39
otherwise this this was a book I’m
85:42
working on the on the progressive air on
85:45
the origins of modern statism the
85:46
Progressive Era the what happens to this
85:49
is has have all my books they get long
85:51
girls like it as I get into it when I
85:54
first the way got started in my history
85:56
book was that I got a I got a small
85:59
grant or to write a to Hawaiian history
86:01
history United States they so somebody
86:04
came to me said Marie once you write a 2
86:05
2 volume history United States take the
86:07
usual facts which everybody agrees on
86:08
like Lincoln was like the president
86:10
something like that and Mike the
86:12
libertarian interpretation of it right
86:14
should be it lead pipe cinch okay great
86:16
could that get it done in a year and a
86:17
half what happened was unfortunately a
86:20
fan out of two million Texans leave
86:21
everything out we can’t just take the
86:23
facts and put a new interpretation on
86:26
the facts were left out so I started
86:29
bringing in the facts I find tax
86:30
rebellions and colonial in New Jersey I
86:33
can’t leave that out right so things
86:35
starts getting longer and longer like
86:36
popsie and I wind up with a five bunyan
86:39
book on the colonial period dropping out
86:42
so the Progressive Era
86:44
as a fascinating or because I find out
86:46
you can’t imagine the horrors that went
86:48
on the progressive period just can’t
86:49
imagine it and every front every
86:51
conceivable front I just think you’re
86:52
not making foreign policy everything
86:54
this is the arrow that psychiatrists
86:56
take over in front of regularly money
86:57
doctors a you social workers you name it
87:00
we’re all in it together
87:02
so they’ve got you know the topic got
87:04
bigger I’m still I will however I’m in
87:06
the middle of it I will however finish
87:07
it anyway that’s the status of it’s not
87:09
imminent my imminent my next imminent
87:11
book is my ethics of Liberty book which
87:12
is coming out this fall have you
87:14
manatees pres which are quite proud of
87:17
us I think it’s sort of like the
87:18
scholarly counterpart of Ford of Liberty
87:21
it’s the this goes into advanced
87:22
problems like blackmail theory
87:24
children’s rights things like that so a
87:27
little plug for that
87:31
yes you’ve had your hand up for a while
87:44
okay the gentleman asked though I think
87:46
there’s a conspiracy for one-world
87:47
government and as if so is the
87:50
trilateral commission a part of it I
87:52
don’t think there’s a conspiracy for
87:53
one-world government there’s a there was
87:57
establishment as a favor of
87:59
international political economic
88:02
admixture basic the basic objective and
88:06
a monetary front example they really
88:08
want one world bank like one world
88:10
reserve system issuing world paper money
88:13
so that the whole world can inflate
88:15
together and so you wouldn’t have to
88:18
worry about gold or exchange rates
88:20
everybody we happily inflating you know
88:22
that’s one of the that’s one of the
88:24
programs that try mile commission sort
88:27
of people I I think a general about the
88:30
the we have to be sophisticated back
88:33
aspera see analysis because most
88:35
dispersing many conspiracy theorists
88:37
tend to think there’s one group of bad
88:38
guys sitting somewhere in some room
88:39
pushing all the buttons you know like
88:41
saying okay Russia and China now fight
88:44
pretend that your enemies and things
88:45
like that well that doesn’t work that
88:48
white in other words what there are is a
88:49
whole bunch of impeding power structures
88:51
or power oriented people groups trying
88:54
to get control of a state apparatus and
88:55
run it and so you have to say four or
88:57
five or six of these groups sometimes
88:59
have a coalition of sometimes are
89:00
fighting each other and whatever that’s
89:02
the I think the essence of and I think
89:04
look at it that way a lot of this stuff
89:05
is very important obviously a trilateral
89:08
commission was obviously running the
89:09
quarter administration for example
89:10
though even the establishment media
89:12
conceded that
89:18
we only have time for about one or two
89:21
more questions and there are a couple of
89:23
people over at this mic here so if you
89:26
go ahead dr. aqua what do you see is the
89:29
future of the accept acceptance of the
89:31
Austrian School of Economics and when do
89:34
you expect to win the Nobel Prize for
89:35
economics the answer the second question
89:43
is very easy absolutely not okay I think
89:46
the future is very good the Austrian
89:48
school was started with zip in 1940s or
89:52
whatever so really only with Mises and
89:54
Hayek and that was about it it’s now
89:58
grown tremendously since nineteen
89:59
seventy one or three is about this you
90:02
know about coincident Libertarian Party
90:03
by the way and we now have conferences
90:08
and seminars we have two or three
90:09
universities we have several like a
90:12
Foucault’s I used to call it of Austrian
90:14
professors we still haven’t broken
90:17
through yet what we have to do is to
90:18
capture so to speak at a graduate
90:20
Department we have to be able to get a
90:21
graduate school we could turn out
90:22
Elstree and doctorates now we haven’t
90:25
gotten that yeah but we’re getting close
90:26
to that sort of thing so I think the
90:29
future is very bright see one of the
90:30
problems is one of the reasons for that
90:31
is that the Keynesian establishment is
90:33
finished and they have done they can’t
90:35
solve any of these problems and they
90:36
know it
90:37
they can’t understand why is inflation
90:39
airy recession all all the time why is
90:40
it prices keep going up all the time
90:42
even though we have recessions there’s
90:44
no way to explain three Minds kind of
90:46
explain it either by the way only the
90:48
Austrians have a solution of that kind
90:50
of problem so I think I think the future
90:52
is very good I think this yes it’s a
90:54
rapidly growing movement it’s the law I
90:56
guess it’s the way the Libertarian Party
90:58
was six years ago or something that sort
91:01
of alright the last question same Mike
91:08
thanks ml Murray I’ve got a little gift
91:11
to commemorate a special occasion in
91:13
Toronto a while back but I wonder if you
91:15
could just tell the audience whether
91:17
it’s an anarchist principle to enter
91:19
strange women’s bedrooms in the middle
91:21
of the night
91:22
of course
91:26
okay okay I want to get a final plug
91:29
there’s the Estonia at this moment
91:31
there’s a Center for libertarian studies
91:34
hospitality suite room 12 17 18 and at
91:38
that point will the set of libertarian
91:40
studies an outfit which aren’t
91:41
intimately associated with I enter the
91:44
journal latarian studies there’s a
91:45
they’re holding a scholars conference
91:47
that’s full of fifth or sixth or eighth
91:49
annual one and we’re kicking off a
91:51
little ball Mises fellowships which are
91:53
fairly munificent post post doctorate or
91:55
P doctorate graduate fellowships in any
91:57
discipline and here this one related to
92:00
libertarianism so anyway I invite you
92:03
all to attend 12 17 18 I’ll be there
92:06
myself for a while so continue this and
92:08
more informally thank you
92:10
[Applause]
92:10
[Music]
92:14
[Applause]
92:14
[Music]
92:16
[Applause]
92:21
[Music]
92:24
[Applause]
92:36
for your information there are probably
92:38
a couple of other places that Marie is
92:40
going to be tonight I don’t know what
92:43
this note from Mary Lou is about but
92:45
this is a snack that was given to you
92:47
and it says hugs the radical caucus of
92:54
Libertarian Party has a hospitality
92:57
suite in room 1745 from now on and also
93:02
the Society for individual liberty has a
93:04
cocktail party also at this time in
93:08
suite 204 – those two wing numbers again
93:12
are one seven four five in 204 – and the
93:17
first place I ever met Marie was at one
93:19
of those caught

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